when red says not natural, she is saying they are artificial. For example the law might classify you as a tresspasser, a licenssee, or one other catergory (3 months later and I am already forgetting torts)-those categories are artificial, maybe you went there cause they accidetnly delievered that person's mail to you, but there is no catergory "person returning misdelivered mail"- you have to fit into one of the artificial categories. Governments are the same for the most part, is there really a thing the united states??
But Red too stuborn to acknowledge your argument, making governments is what humans do-its encompassed by humanity and explained by the evolving brain and other social sciences. Its natural in that its second nature to humans
If its admitted governments are artificial there is no circularity in saying citizens-its a fixed category, but just like law you can bend the facts to fit into the category.
I can't remember the third thing you were arguing, but in short you both probably right in what you are saying, but talking past each other.