Socio-Economic Affirmative Action

[TexasGuy]

I have been amazed throughout the law school admissions process at just how much lower the standards of admission on numerical factors are for URM applicants. I would be interested to know if anyone has a good reason why AA should be based on race rather than socio-economics. It seems to me that a white child from a poor inner city family has overcome infinitely more hardship than a black one from the suburbs and a private school so I see no reason why the latter child should receive a major boost in admissions. It seems like if the bump was based on economic background and material privildge it would still help a large number of minorities without attaching the blanket stigma that if you are a minority at a top school you are not as "smart" at least on hard factors as your white classmates.

The current system seesm to stigmatize minorities and potentially give boosts where they are least needed. Namely, to those minority applicants who have already led privlidged lives and need to no additional benefits.

[redemption]

Ok, quick scan and you've said nothing new. Please find the very very many threads that already exist on this and read through those. They all discuss/address your concerns. Alternatively, you can construct your own admissions system in the thread created by John Galt. 

[philibusters]

Red its true that this subject has been covered numerous times, but why bring that if you weren't going to say anything of substance.  It seems like you are mocking the person and saying nothing.-Maybe the person thought the debate hadn't been settled to his satification and is inviting people to put their thoughts in, so that hopefully people would add new things to the already covered topic.

[philibusters]

Fair enough, but this is the affirmative action forum.  I attacked people on lawschoolnumbers for writing messages to an African American girl concerning AA because I thought that was the wrong forum, what right did they have to diminish her accomplishments on her page.  I don't think think its reasonably to expect to get attacked on AA when you create a lawschoolnumbers page and that its downright rude to do so.  However this is different, like I said the forum is Affirmative Action, I don't think you can criticize people for starting threads about affirmative action in the forum specifically designed for that topic.

And George Jefferson- I grant you that you post was humorous and not meant to be taken literally like I responded to it, I just wanted to emphasize the right of the original poster to create the thread.

[philibusters]

I'll resurrect this thread with a few questions for the orignal poster

1) How do you adminster this socio-economic thread?

A. How can you prove you are poor, this sound very easily manipulible, and seems like it would encourage lying.
B.  How will you keep costs down because it seems like you have to give them scholarships too now, after all, they are poor.  Getting into Harvard is one thing, paying for it is another.

2) One possible benefit of racial AA is that the urm's will go back to the urm's communities and help build a stronger infrasture in those communities (I don't know how much it happens, but I know it does sometimes), with whites they could easily assimilate into middle class-so does really address an institutional bias against the poor or just help individuals and leave the next generation of poor as bad as the previous one?

3)  We all know the poor always lose out in the political process, why are schools going to stick with this program if they get no benefits from it?

4)  There is cultural diversity in allowing urm's into schools, they come from a different culture. Allowing poor people in allows geninune economic diversity, but if a lot of the people are white, while it increases economic diversity, does it limit cultural diversity.  Which is more important cultural or economic diveristy?

[JamesD]

Racial diversity does not necessarily equal cultural diversity.  I know lots of rich black students at top law schools who have more in common - culturally - with their rich white counterparts than they do with individuals of the same race who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.  The Declining Significance of Race by William Julius Wilson.  I always agreed with his premise that race impacts upper class blacks much less than it impacts lower class blacks.  Having lived in the Bronx and Baltimore, I am of the opinion that most rich black kids have very very little in common with the poor kids in the ghetto.  Basically.... racial diversity... imo... does not always yield cultural diversity.

Proving you are 'poor' ... your tax returns... and your parents tax returns if you have been claimed any time in the past X number of years.  Your assets.  Trust funds.   Holdings.  Etc.  You can use all of these indicators to determine who is poor and who is not... imperfect, yes... but still a decent indicator.

On another note, I get so much hatred on my LSN profile its ridiculous....   

 

[philibusters]

Racial diversity does not necessarily equal cultural diversity.  I know lots of rich black students at top law schools who have more in common - culturally - with their rich white counterparts than they do with individuals of the same race who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.  The Declining Significance of Race by William Julius Wilson.  I always agreed with his premise that race impacts upper class blacks much less than it impacts lower class blacks.  Having lived in the Bronx and Baltimore, I am of the opinion that most rich black kids have very very little in common with the poor kids in the ghetto.  Basically.... racial diversity... imo... does not always yield cultural diversity.

Proving you are 'poor' ... your tax returns... and your parents tax returns if you have been claimed any time in the past X number of years.  Your assets.  Trust funds.   Holdings.  Etc.  You can use all of these indicators to determine who is poor and who is not... imperfect, yes... but still a decent indicator.

On another note, I get so much hatred on my LSN profile its ridiculous....   

 

Damn, I read you whole post without realizing you were a urm, until you mentioned it at the end--You might be right about upper class blacks not having much in common with lower class blacks, but still at least from my experience at undergrad at the University of Maryland (which like a melting pot, probably half the kids are not white) the different races all had some unique cultural styles and values.  I know cliques formed around race at College Park, (except for the honors kids, proving a geek is a geek no matter what race) and I always assumed that was at least in part because of cultural differences.

Its hard to measure wealth
1) For example your parents are divorced and say you mom doesn't work, just claim you are a dependent of hers, and you will qualify for all types of AA, even though say your dad is a successful doctor and could easily pay for your college and would if he had to.
2)  $50,000 in NYC is worth about the same as $20,000 in a small midwestern town.
3)  Seems like it would be easy to lie and hard for the school to catch people.

You get the hatred on your lsn profile because people are worried that any benefit you get really hurts them.  They don't understand that AA only affects the very marginal candidates, basically the people at the top of the waitlists.  They just complain in your profile because they are doing what all humans do-promoting their self-interest and decrying anything that hurts their self interest-don't look it at as personal, just look at it as another example of how pathetic human nature can be.

[psr13]

I am white but definitely am more culturally diverse than how people think of white people. I have been around many different cultures growing up and have been shaped by that. As such, I would add to the cultural diversity of a school even though I am white.

I could go back to my poor neighborhood and help to improve it, too. I would do that if I ever had enough money. Not only white people can easily assimilate into middle-class society.

[philibusters]

I am white but definitely am more culturally diverse than how people think of white people. I have been around many different cultures growing up and have been shaped by that. As such, I would add to the cultural diversity of a school even though I am white.

I could go back to my poor neighborhood and help to improve it, too. I would do that if I ever had enough money. Not only white people can easily assimilate into middle-class society.

Hmm, I wonder what we mean by culturally diversity.  In some ways whites have cultural diversity, a southern is very different from a western, new englander from a midwesterner. Also along geographic lines you have your urban people with urban tastes and values and more rural people with more rural tastes and value. Also class diversity exists within white people, you have your rich, middle class, and poor whites, you also have vast differents in political views and social values.  So clearly, even all white people are not alike.  However all white people are alike in some ways, maybe more so than ever, tv programs show programs that homogenize the population, all white people think of their history as U.S. history (minus recent white immigrants obviously) and readily identify with gov't and the dominant white social institutions.

What I don't know and don't understand is how urm's identify themselves.  Say an urm turns on the television program "the war at home" on fox, do they think white person show or do they jsut think the war at home.  I don't know.  PSR13 point is valid, some white people might see themselves as not included in the dominant norms of society.

Finally what is the purpose of race based AA.  To add diversity to a profession, or to bring the profession to the racial class which had previously been alienated from the profession or social institution or whatever you want to call it.

[psr13]

I am not an immigrant. In fact, in one family line I am tenth generation in America. Well, it wasn't America when they first got here. Even with that, I am do not follow any of the things that you said white people do. I do not use US history as my history. My family does come from other countries, and I am proud of that. I do not readily identify with the government and social institutions.