Law School Discussion

Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?

Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2006, 04:42:44 PM »
Just jumping in here, but Cardozo has an awesome faculty, even though there is a lot of turnover.  They are constantly losing young faculty to the Ivies, but miraculously, they are just as constantly filling those openings with other new talented faculty, who later get picked up by the Ivies.

The faculty is extremely well regarded in the most theoretical areas of legal study, so I think they are able to pull some students to their school who were really hoping to get into a top, top school so they could get that experience.  For that group of students, there isn't an alternative to Cardozo, that they got into and that offers such an academic/theoretical experience.

Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2006, 02:21:36 PM »
Cardozo's location is pretty sweet too, right on 14th street by Union Square.  Very nice.

Here's my problem.  I've gotten waitlisted to Cardozo...and they might offer me a part-time May 06 offer where I'll rejoin the fulltime class in Fall 07 as a 2L.  If Brooklyn also rejects/waitlists me (I really hope not)...do you think it makes sense to take the May 06 P/T offer over SJU Law (40% scholarship)?

I might lose opportunities to be part of orientation and to gain summer internships if I do part-time.  Also, I'll be disconnected from the 1L experience, but Cardozo (and Brooklyn) is an extremely solid Tier 2 school.  Brooklyn F/T first choice, but should Cardozo May P/T be my second (as of now it is)?


tobias

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2006, 03:01:25 PM »
Cardozo's location is pretty sweet too, right on 14th street by Union Square.  Very nice.

Here's my problem.  I've gotten waitlisted to Cardozo...and they might offer me a part-time May 06 offer where I'll rejoin the fulltime class in Fall 07 as a 2L.  If Brooklyn also rejects/waitlists me (I really hope not)...do you think it makes sense to take the May 06 P/T offer over SJU Law (40% scholarship)?

I might lose opportunities to be part of orientation and to gain summer internships if I do part-time.  Also, I'll be disconnected from the 1L experience, but Cardozo (and Brooklyn) is an extremely solid Tier 2 school.  Brooklyn F/T first choice, but should Cardozo May P/T be my second (as of now it is)?


I'm really hoping to get into Brooklyn (or one of my reaches) as well. If not, though, I will be doing the May program at Cardozo. I have spoken with a number of people in the program and they all had glowing things to report. I really don't think you would missing out on the 1L experience at all. You'd just be in section with others in the May program. The only difference is that first year classes are divided over three semesters, not two. Classes are all daytime. And there is a full orientation in May, also. I've heard you are at an advantage for 1L internships because you will have more grades to show potential employers than other students. Were you at the reception last night?

Anyway, I am in a similar situation having received 15k from St. John's. However, their program didn't appeal to me as much as Cardozo, and I wasn't crazy about the location. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Brooklyn et al.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


nmb238

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2006, 04:30:34 PM »
I was at the Cardozo admitted students reception last night at Weil Gotshal...

I am only really considering it at this point because of their $$ offer, but I was impressed: the Dean was VERY lively and interesting, and he really pushed how incredible the faculty is, alot of whom were there and were also very outgoing and friendly. My friend and I went thinking we would stay maybe 30 mins, and ended up chatting for more than an hour.

Dean Rudenstine made a point about how young it is- he said since 1976 its climbed an incredible amount so that if it stays at this rate, and according to their application rates, LSAT scores and faculty acquisitions it certainly is rising, it will be ranked a top school in a few years. its a really really good point. im not sure i want to go to a school which is ALMOST amazing, but I think it trumps Brooklyn Law in that regard: its going places, probably to Tier 1 at some point.

Weil Gotshal, by the way, was insane. I mean really gorgeous. And Cardozo has an incredible relationship with them- aside from the faculty, Deans and current students, there were LOADS of Weil Gotshal alumni in the room too, including a partner who I dont think was Jewish (to respond to the Jewish factor above...)

i think its safe to say its one of the best non-tier1 schools out there, and will be climbing tiers in the coming decade. is it enough to pull me away from substantial debt at GW or Cornell? probably not.

~n

JamesD

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2006, 04:39:19 PM »
Depends where you want to go.  If you want to work in NYC, then I think Cardozo with $$$ is deffinitly enough to pull you away from substantial debt at GW.  If I wanted to practice in NYC ... and had been accepted at Cardozo with $$ and Cornell with no money.... that would be the real debate. 


rhombot

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2006, 05:33:35 PM »
i find that taking saturdays off helps me be more productive and energetic during the rest of the week. and god feels the same way.

the crazy thing about religious observance is that the jewish holidays are concentrated right at the beginning of the academic year. 7 out of the first 22 days of the jewish year are holidays, during which you can't study. this doesn't include the sabbaths, either. and the jewish years always starts in september or early october. it can make you fall behind really fast.

and yet, observant jews do just fine in law school.

tobias

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2006, 05:49:45 PM »
i find that taking saturdays off helps me be more productive and energetic during the rest of the week. and god feels the same way.

the crazy thing about religious observance is that the jewish holidays are concentrated right at the beginning of the academic year. 7 out of the first 22 days of the jewish year are holidays, during which you can't study. this doesn't include the sabbaths, either. and the jewish years always starts in september or early october. it can make you fall behind really fast.

and yet, observant jews do just fine in law school.

At my undergrad we got all the holidays off (ok, not too many choices here, think "nonsectarian") and I did not realize how much easier that made my academic life. In grad school, nada - my classes meet once a week, if the days fall a certain way I barely get to know anyone in my classes, the professor, etc fall semester. So that would be a big plus for me about Cardozo.

140am

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2006, 06:21:37 PM »
stays at this rate, and according to their application rates, LSAT scores and faculty acquisitions it certainly is rising, it will be ranked a top school in a few years. its a really really good point.

Someone else made the (correct) point that the schools it has to pass next are much better than the schools it has already passed.  Not only that, but it is in New York, and the rankings have an enormous bias towards the Eastern half of the country, and specifically the Northeast.  Further, it was introduced before rankings existed.  Had this school been introduced today, with rankings already in place, it would have been a much tougher climb, as it would have debuted in the 3rd tier most likely, and probably would have had a tougher time raising its LSAT medians, because the rankings tend to be a self-fulfilling prophecy in many regards.

Last but not least by any stretch -- the rankings are only useful in figuring out how national, not how regional a school is, and more specifically, how well a school tends to place graduates in certain (ie: initially high-paying) jobs (ie: biglaw and/or clerkships).  Not to reiterate, but the school is in New York, which is the mecca of such firm jobs.

I'm not trying to cut the school down, as I am sure it is a great school.  I can't think of anything bad to say about it.  But to think it's going to catapult drastically at this point doesn't seem likely.  There's a reason a school like Brooklyn isn't 'going anywhere' at this point -- there's only so much space to 'go' into in the rankings. 

Jsia, not trying to be a hater or anything :)

Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2006, 09:51:46 AM »
kevdog makes some good points.  Particularly compelling is the idea that had it been introduced after the rankings came out, it would have had a harder time making the climb because of the self-fulfilling prophecy thing.  Interesting idea.

Despite what he says, I think that Cardozo is more capable of making the climb than any other similarly ranked school.  First, they offer a lot of money to attract top students.  This is just the price you have to pay if you want to climb in the rankings, but most schools don't get it, or don't have enough money to do it on a substantial basis like Cardozo does.  Second, being a clearly religiously affiliated school means that they will likely hold onto whatever gains they make.  They are not likely to fluctuate up and down, but rather move up, plateau, move up, etc.  Look at a school like BYU, a Mormon school.  Their LSAT/GPA, selectivity, yield, etc. are much higher than their ranking would suggest.  This is because they are able to convince some students every year to turn down much better schools because of a certain loyalty/niche something or other.  Cardozo can do the same thing for themselves as long as they remain very Jewish, and since they are associated with Yeshiva, they will remain so.  Third, and this separates it from the BYU example, but Cardozo's faculty is much much better than its ranking.  Schools like Notre Dame and BYU do well in the rankings because of their strong student bodies, but their faculty lags fiercly behind.  Maybe this is bias (John Finnis at Notre Dame is definitely among the most important legal scholars of our generation but who anymore is writing about natural law), who knows, but fortunately for Cardozo, they don't have that problem.  In fact, Cardozo's faculty pulls fiercely ahead of the rest of the school.  As more and more applicants look not only at USNews but also at Leiter's study (and any other that measures the same stuff), Cardozo will be able to pull their USNews ranking up by attracting a better student body.

Eternal post, I know, sorry about that.  Short answer:  I still think they are going to make the climb.

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Re: Why is Cardozo regarded so highly?
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2006, 05:32:29 PM »
kevdog makes some good points.  Particularly compelling is the idea that had it been introduced after the rankings came out, it would have had a harder time making the climb because of the self-fulfilling prophecy thing.  Interesting idea.

Despite what he says, I think that Cardozo is more capable of making the climb than any other similarly ranked school.  First, they offer a lot of money to attract top students.  This is just the price you have to pay if you want to climb in the rankings, but most schools don't get it, or don't have enough money to do it on a substantial basis like Cardozo does.  Second, being a clearly religiously affiliated school means that they will likely hold onto whatever gains they make.  They are not likely to fluctuate up and down, but rather move up, plateau, move up, etc.  Look at a school like BYU, a Mormon school.  Their LSAT/GPA, selectivity, yield, etc. are much higher than their ranking would suggest.  This is because they are able to convince some students every year to turn down much better schools because of a certain loyalty/niche something or other.  Cardozo can do the same thing for themselves as long as they remain very Jewish, and since they are associated with Yeshiva, they will remain so.  Third, and this separates it from the BYU example, but Cardozo's faculty is much much better than its ranking.  Schools like Notre Dame and BYU do well in the rankings because of their strong student bodies, but their faculty lags fiercly behind.  Maybe this is bias (John Finnis at Notre Dame is definitely among the most important legal scholars of our generation but who anymore is writing about natural law), who knows, but fortunately for Cardozo, they don't have that problem.  In fact, Cardozo's faculty pulls fiercely ahead of the rest of the school.  As more and more applicants look not only at USNews but also at Leiter's study (and any other that measures the same stuff), Cardozo will be able to pull their USNews ranking up by attracting a better student body.

Eternal post, I know, sorry about that.  Short answer:  I still think they are going to make the climb.

It true that Cardozo benefits from being in the New York market but as its rankings get higher that benefit will start to dissapear.  I dont think Cardozo will make any great leaps in the next coming years.  As its lsat scores rises Cardozo will have to find more elite students to fill its class ranks but their is a big difference in getting people to choose Cardozo over a similarly ranked TT or a Tier 1 not in NYC then getting students to choose Cardozo over Fordham, Cornell, Michigan or higher ranked schools.  Don't forget these other schools also have funds to seduce students with also.  And they arent going to sit idly by as Cardozo tries to get their students.  As strong of a draw going to a jewish law school might be for some jewish students, going to Cornell, NYU, Columbia and any other T20 is an even better draw.  Escepially for schools that place well in NYC. Like a previous poster said its going to be harder to break into the T50 then it was going up the T100.  By Cardozo moving up someone has to move down and from what I've read ALL schools are in this ranking game.  As to faculty ranking compare Cardozo's http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/faculty_staff/fulltime.asp with Pittburgh's  http://www.law.pitt.edu/faculty/profiles.php (ranked 52), almost the same level of pedigree.  How will Cardozo overtake that, they may have a young faculty but youth does not bring prestige.  They might be young doesnt mean that they will become famost or stay at Cardozo (why would a great scholar choose to stay at Cardozo instead of going to Chicago).