Law School Discussion

just curious as to why asians aren't URM

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Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2006, 09:48:39 AM »

ummmm.. the asian population is already in the billions.. i see it less as a matter of taking over the world and more the effects of diffusion;)  (or is it active transport?)

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2006, 09:55:02 AM »
sodium, potassium, and some cellular membrames


we're talking about an active pump here

this is affirmative global domination :)

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Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2006, 10:56:21 AM »

fascinating hypothesis.  so by shunting the sodium/potassium pump, we can effectively stop the asian world domination plot?  I see now why UC Berkeley, which is heavily asian as you noted, is so antagonistic towards potato chips with artificial components.  :)

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2006, 11:55:33 PM »




Apparently on the East Coast the exact converse is true - there is an Asian drain out to the west coast and thus in fact Asians ARE URM in the east - which is why an asian male might ge given the academic benefits of URM status on an application to say Vanderbilt, while that exact same asian male certainly would not be considered URM if he applied to say Berkeley ....

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The moral of the story? Asians are taking over the world :)
it's you guys in cali thats at fault. If it wasnt you guys, asians would have URM status
I went cali once and holy *&^%, it was like the yellow river.  And it seems like asians in cali are richer then their counterparts in the east

once denied

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 02:33:15 PM »
It depends on where you apply.  Asians are generally not considered URM for T15 schools because of the large number of Asians applying . . . but for less competitive schools, particularly those in rural areas/Midwest/South, Asians are often considered a URM.  That said, I believe that being Asian could get *any* adcomm to take an extra "look" at your app if you have soft factors such as past language barriers, discrimination, etc. that are connected to but not necessarily determined by race.

denk

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Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2006, 01:46:20 AM »
Quote
This is like asking why are Jews not URMs.

Yeah, I'm guessing we're probably ORMs.  (OVERrepresented minorities) :-)

Maybe, in line with AA, there should have *tougher* entrance requirements for us.  :-P

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2006, 12:16:44 AM »
i was looking at some statistics, and i was wondering why the asian race is not considered an under-represented minority.

they make up only about 2% of the law profession, while making up 3.6% of the total population. while they are not as "under-represented" as a whole than other minorities, namely hispanics who make up 12.5% of the total population but have only 3.9% in law, they are still under represented as a percentage of the total population.

so what gives?

*these statistics are from the 2000 census, fyi.

can you handle the truth?

i think others have been helpful in touching the surface on this topic though...

uesi

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 01:49:13 PM »
Another question that comes up is WHY are these asians overrepresented? Many of them came from just as disadvantaged backgrounds if not worse. Jeez, a good number of them come here not even knowing the language and still wind up more successful that the average "URM". By supporting AA, are we basically saying that certain groups are inferior and can't make it without help?

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2006, 02:02:32 PM »
Another question that comes up is WHY are these asians overrepresented? Many of them came from just as disadvantaged backgrounds if not worse. Jeez, a good number of them come here not even knowing the language and still wind up more successful that the average "URM". By supporting AA, are we basically saying that certain groups are inferior and can't make it without help?

this is credited.

Re: just curious as to why asians aren't URM
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2006, 11:38:32 PM »
Another question that comes up is WHY are these asians overrepresented? Many of them came from just as disadvantaged backgrounds if not worse. Jeez, a good number of them come here not even knowing the language and still wind up more successful that the average "URM". By supporting AA, are we basically saying that certain groups are inferior and can't make it without help?

No, supporting AA is not saying that. There are several reasons why there is a disparity between Asians and other minorities. Nevertheless Asians ARE URMS in the area of law. While CA and HI firms and grad/law/medical schools might demonstrate a large amount of Asian students, this does not make Asians ORMS nationwide. Sure there are law schools and firms in San Francisco that have a higher percentage of Asian students and employees, but this is no reflection on the rest of the nation. I can guarantee you there are pleanty of firms in the Midwest with ZERO Asian attorneys, and at law schools outside of CA you can probably count the number of Asian law students on both hands (the same can often be done when it comes to Black and Latino students as well).


More is explained below... caution, harsh and honest words ahead....

Civil Rights and Immigration
Aside from the small amount of Chinese and Japanese Americans that were here during the early 20th century, most Asians did not begin to largely immigrate to the US until the late 70s and early 80s. By this time, much anti-discriminatory legislation was being PRACTICED and ENFORCED, and this worked to the benefit of Asians. Asian professionals were able to get jobs like anyone else, and since there were diversity quotas in companies, companies wanted people of color work in their business to deflect any accusations of being racist. So many professional Asians arrived at a good time.

As for poor and disadvantaged Asians, many who also came around this time came with assistance from the US government and from religious missionaries. Many of these people were refugees from wars in Southeast Asia. If they weren't getting aid by being refugees, they were getting help from religious organizations. These orgs were giving people free housing, food to eat, helping them find jobs and learn English.

This kind of assistance and good timing was a stepping stone that many Blacks and Latinos never had. And if there was any headway for Blacks and Latinos, it came at a painfully expensive plight. Sit through a semester of Con Law and then perhaps we can argue this point a little more (and don't come back with the "that was a long time ago" argument because if everything was just peachy, we won't be asking for race on law school applications or fuming about racial disparities or even posting on the topic of this very thread!). Additionally, there is a bit of favoritism among minorities which leads me to my next point.....

House Slave vs Field Slave
If you haven't heard the expression, it comes from a painful past when slaves with dark complexions were left to work in the fields, while multi-racial "white-looking" slaves were allowed to work in the houses of the master. Unfortunately this mentality still perseveres today. People will rave about Thandi Newton and Halle Berry, but don't have too much to say when it comes to Alek Wek or Iman. In many ways, this mentality has also spanned into a division of treatment between Asians versus Latinos and Blacks. Companies can claim they have diverse work settings because they have non-white staff who are Asians. Additionally, Asians have not had to battle as many constant negative stereotypes as Blacks and Latinos. Sure, there is the occasional "you talk funny and eat dog" comment (which is totally out of line) but you'll much sooner hear a 'good ol boy' say "I'll never higher 'a Black'/ 'a Latino'" before you'd hear him say anything against Asians. The annoying stereotypes that Asians are docile, soft-spoken, passive and hard working have in some ways worked to their benefit to wear the disgusting crown of "model minority."

In America, it's not about class - it's about money
In this country, we don't value class. What is class? Your social status, your educational level, your upbringing, etc. There are many professional and educated Blacks and Latinos who also immigrated to the US within the last 30 years, but negative stereotypes have overshadowed them. There are many doctors from Ghana an Nigeria, just as there are engineers and scientists from Peru and Panama. But the sad difference is that a discriminating person sees only the color of their skin and makes a judgment against them. They will question the soundness and validity of their education, or make their accent a big issue, or perhaps not even realize the they are disfavoring any of these candidates. People will see their brown and black skin and question if they should be driving a Mercedes of a BMW, when they are less likely to do that if there is an Asian driver behind the wheel.


It's not about lowing the bar - it evening the playing field
The problem today is that the field is not even. I think everyone wants to say that if you work hard, you will succeed no matter what color you are. Nice fantasy, but it's definitely not a simple reality.  That won't happen until we stop making race an issue in this country. And it won't happen as long as this "white / minority" and "us vs them" element is in existence. Until then, we have to consider the uneven playing field. If the US government didn't mandate against discriminatory practices, do you think law firms would have "diversity initiatives" all over their websites? Hell no! I mean people got sprayed with fire hoses and were beaten while fighting for this kind of stuff.

When you're blonde with blue eyes and walk in for a job, people don't hesitate because they once had ONE difficult/lazy/rude/unproductive employee with blonde hair and blue eyes. When you walk into a corner store, the owner doesn’t tense up even though he was once robbed by a man with blonde hair and blue eyes. When you're with your non-white friends, they don't ask you if you want to hear a racist joke about white people with blonde hair and blue eyes. When your good ole boy coworkers decide to go to the golf course to discuss promotions, they don't forget to include you because they don't want to be seen with blonde haired blue eyed people outside of work. Etcetera, ertcetera, etcetera.

Even though discrimination is not as blatant as it was in the past, the subtleties are still present. Additionally I feel that these subtleties have evoked a level of pain and hopelessness among many black and latino kids. Why try if no one wants you? Many black and latino youth have found the inner-strength to overcome this, but it seems that you don't really understand how it feels to be essentially be rejected in you own country by your very own countrymen. This is not to discount the experiences of Asians, since many have also experienced the same pain. Interestingly many Asians have had slightly/somewhat easier experiences in gaining acceptance into mainstream/ white America. Perhaps because of skin complexions, many Asians do not stand out as much in a white crowd. Colleague's eyebrows don't raise as high when you hire an Asian employee. You mother doesn't quite fall to the floor when she sees you walking up the driveway with your new Asian girlfriend - at least the grandkids will still kind of look white, right? Tough words, but the sad reality is that people still think this way.

Are we saying that certain groups are inferior and can't make it without help?
AA is the best magic wand we can find *at the moment* to deal with people who don't want people of color in their workforces, businesses, schools and communities. These are the people who consider other groups to be "inferior" and these discriminatory practices are unconstitutional. It doesn't mean it's the absolute correct answer, or the best solution for all eternity. The "help" that you speak of is just giving people access and fair consideration for opportunities that were once not available to them.

I can say there is hope, as the generations continue to grow wiser and less biased to people different from one another. A white kid today can bring home a Latino friend after school without it being the talk of the neighborhood. An Asian guy can take a Black girl to the prom without inciting a race riot. A White guy can walk down the street hand in hand with his Asian wife and people will walk by them without question. Howver, this amount social progress has not led us to racial utopia. The reality remains that many of the decision makers in major fields - be it law, advertising, fortune 500 companies, or the entertainment industry - still hold biases and practice subtle discrimination that flies under the radar. The AA wand creates a band aid on the wound of these practices. No one wants violate the civil rights act or get bad press for being discriminatory. AA gives these businesses (and even schools) a chance to save face and "do good", while giving a few more minorities a chance the would have otherwise not had.

Thanks for reading....