Law School Discussion

Terror in the Skies

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Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2004, 09:17:49 AM »
Munky, yes I did go back and re-read your posts. My apologies. You weren't saying that they deserve it just that that's the way the world works. However, I still think that evidence can be found that ppl of all ethnicities, or at least some other than just Arabs, collaborated together in the planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks. The black French Algerian guy is one, Jose Padilla is another. These are ppl off the top of my head that I know about. I'm sure Al Qaeda has received help from whites in the planning stages, especially when they were in places like Berlin and London. So when I mentioned ppl of other races that have committed terrorists acts, I wasn't describing crimes in general but rather the planning and execution of 9/11.

The funny thing is, however, that when whites do commit terrorist acts, nobody in the gov't decides that we should change around the way that we do security. Sure small changes may be made, but it is not a complete overhaul of the system. After the Oklahoma City bombing nobody suggested that angry white men should be thoroughly checked. After the Unabomber terrorized ppl, nobody suggested that our postal system should now start scanning mail for explosives or other harmful substances. It didn't even register in the minds of the media, public, or politicians because as a white society, we all just figured that these ppl are radicals that do not adequately represent how the rest of society behaves. Therefore, it is not rational to take away our civil liberties and spend ungodly amounts overhauling the system since we all know that events like these are tragic but unpreventable. Yet, when some Muslim men perform a terrorist act, there is great confusion among Americans as to whether or not they are radicals or rather represent their faith. We spend tons of airtime in the media holding politicians and agencies accountable since it appears in our mind that terrorist events can be 100% prevented. We overhaul the system and then overhaul it some more. 

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2004, 10:53:43 AM »
Munky, yes I did go back and re-read your posts. My apologies. You weren't saying that they deserve it just that that's the way the world works. However, I still think that evidence can be found that ppl of all ethnicities, or at least some other than just Arabs, collaborated together in the planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks. The black French Algerian guy is one, Jose Padilla is another. These are ppl off the top of my head that I know about. I'm sure Al Qaeda has received help from whites in the planning stages, especially when they were in places like Berlin and London. So when I mentioned ppl of other races that have committed terrorists acts, I wasn't describing crimes in general but rather the planning and execution of 9/11.

The funny thing is, however, that when whites do commit terrorist acts, nobody in the gov't decides that we should change around the way that we do security. Sure small changes may be made, but it is not a complete overhaul of the system. After the Oklahoma City bombing nobody suggested that angry white men should be thoroughly checked. After the Unabomber terrorized ppl, nobody suggested that our postal system should now start scanning mail for explosives or other harmful substances. It didn't even register in the minds of the media, public, or politicians because as a white society, we all just figured that these ppl are radicals that do not adequately represent how the rest of society behaves. Therefore, it is not rational to take away our civil liberties and spend ungodly amounts overhauling the system since we all know that events like these are tragic but unpreventable. Yet, when some Muslim men perform a terrorist act, there is great confusion among Americans as to whether or not they are radicals or rather represent their faith. We spend tons of airtime in the media holding politicians and agencies accountable since it appears in our mind that terrorist events can be 100% prevented. We overhaul the system and then overhaul it some more. 

 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were saudis, and others egyptian or algerian.   I completely agree that many people are ignorant idiots and blame or suspect anyone with darker skin.  But after something as huge as 9/11 one would have to expect that there are going to be security and policy changes (as ridiculous as many of them are as noted in farenheit 911 with the lighters, matches, breast milk, etc.).  Security was definitely boosted after oklahoma, and even after columbine people were blaming goth music groups and profiling kids who wore trench coats.  Anyway, this has gottn off topic but all I wanted to say at the beginning was that given the men's erradic behavior on that "terror in the skies" flight, it is justifiable to be alarmed.  Regardless of race/ethnicity/descent (for all of the PC-ers), it is unusual. 

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Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2004, 11:59:10 AM »
I don't think it's all that erratic to congregate when 14 of them were completely spread out over the plane. Say a group of 10 white American friends all boarded a flight but had seats all throughout the plane congregated by the bathrooms, I wouldn't think twice. It's the only space they have to stand and talk.

Again, I think that the magnitude of 9/11 is different from your perspective. I think that the gov't, public, and media can make any terrorist event into one of these enormous issues. If the NYT didn't write about it everyday and politicians brushed it off and ppl just moved on, I don't think we'd be talking about this today. Ppl are very quick to forget. It's the constant fact that we must be reminded about this that jogs our memories and emotions concerning 9/11.

In my opinion, I don't think we should have to overhaul the system because terrorism is a very small threat to American lives. I was watching the Bill Maher show on HBO and he mentioned that in the year prior to 9/11, only between 20-35 Americans would die because of terrorism. In 2002, the number stayed consistent w/ the prior years. In fact, he mentioned, that more Americans die on average from bee stings. More Americans die on average while shoveling snow. So to spend $92 billion and upwards to save 20-35 Americans every year seems ludicrous. It only becomes unthinkable when one also considers how our civil liberties have been trampled upon; how after so many years of progress with racism, we have once again succombed to racial profiling and stereotyping; how the government is willing to invade nations that have never threatened to attack the United States; how Americans are even more vulnerable abroad, regardless of the $92 billion spent; how the world has turned away from as a world leader; how the United States no longer practices "exhalted justice" as George Washington once planned the US to do.

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2004, 12:13:12 PM »

If the NYT didn't write about it everyday and politicians brushed it off and ppl just moved on, I don't think we'd be talking about this today. Ppl are very quick to forget. It's the constant fact that we must be reminded about this that jogs our memories and emotions concerning 9/11.


I don't think the victim's families will agree with you, nor will they ever forget.

In my opinion, I don't think we should have to overhaul the system because terrorism is a very small threat to American lives. I was watching the Bill Maher show on HBO and he mentioned that in the year prior to 9/11, only between 20-35 Americans would die because of terrorism. In 2002, the number stayed consistent w/ the prior years. In fact, he mentioned, that more Americans die on average from bee stings. More Americans die on average while shoveling snow. So to spend $92 billion and upwards to save 20-35 Americans every year seems ludicrous.

again, i am sure the victim's families and friends wouldn't say it is ludicrous to overhaul the system after thousands of lives were destroyed, and it was clear that our system fails.  The year prior to 9/11 is irrelevant.  What happened after is what counts.  And to say that trying to protect other Americans from something like that happening is not ludicrous.  I am sorry you appear to be so calloused.  I am not commenting on you personally, it just really seems apparent in your post.  I think you would have a different perspective if you lost someone. 

Anyway, I am done with this thread.  let's just kill it, it is too depressing.

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Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2004, 12:30:01 PM »
Sure if I lost someone, I would be upset. Yet, I don't think that I would expect the other taxpayers to spend $92 billion dollars to save 20-35 ppl since other terrorist attacks are inevitable. I do feel bad for everyone who lost someone through an act of terrorism. I feel worst for the firemen since they were trying to help and the bussers in the top of the restaurant since their families are going to get *&^% since none of them had life insurance. I had a friend who lost her brother-in-law, a NYC fireman. I feel bad for her family. My best friend lost her dad in a plane crash due to fog and the FAA messed up (kinda similar) when she was 8. I feel bad for them too. However, knowing that my friend's mom picked up $30 million in a suit does make me upset since that's taxpayers money. I don't think that taxpayers should have to pay such enormous sums that achieve what... Who's really winning?

And yes, you are correct that the years after 9/11 are what counts. In 2003 it was w/in that range and in 2004 it maybe as well. Personally, I don't think that Al Qaeda will do such a huge production but may count on several small scale attacks which are abroad, ie. US embassies. In the end, I think that 2001 was an anamoly b/c of 9/11.

mukhia

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2004, 12:42:16 PM »
Well, erratic or not, I think if I had been a passenger on that plane who did not speak Arabic, I, too would have been terrified.  9/11 is still all too clear in the forefront of my mind and I think Jacobsen's use of the word "cautious American" may hold some value because of the context of her fear.  I imagine it's akin to fearing men or being nervous around them after being violently raped.  Bunch of middle-eastern men congregating erratically on the streets, I'm fine with.  Bunch of middle-easterner men congregating erratically in an airplane, not so much.  My friends who are middle-eastern say they would have also been a little disturbed unless they could hear what the men were saying and it was something like, "Okay, guys, that was some really bad baba ganoush we had for lunch, it's giving me the runs - donít hog the toilet."  I agree with you Giraffe that we are floating in dangerous territory whereby we may resort back to a level of racism we think we have surpassed and I donít agree with all of the political and procedural ramifications that have been spawned by 9/11; however, it's too hard to try and practice "exalted justice" after you've lost some friends in a horrific manner at the World Trade Center.

superiorlobe

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2004, 02:51:54 PM »
I'm in favor of racial profiling.  It is not like being pulled over while driving now and again is that big a deal.  And being asked to step aside for a more thorough security check is no big deal either.  If you don't have anything to hide, then you should be happy to comply.

If I was an Arab and I was constantly being pulled aside for more thorough security screenings, the people I would be mad at (if anyone at all -- it's not that big a deal, after all) would be the Arab terrorists who give all Arabs a bad name.  I wouldn't blame the security guards for the fact that Arabs have gone around cultivating a reputation as terrorists.

Same thing with young black men.  Let's say that a woman walking alone at night crosses to the other side of the street when she sees a couple young black men walking toward her.  If the young black men get upset, they should direct their anger at the other young black men who have given them this reputation.  It's not the girl's fault that young black men have an unsafe reputation, so they shouldn't be upset at her.

mukhia

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2004, 02:56:51 PM »
My bf is one of those young black men - ha ha - girls, you are most welcome to cross over to the other side of the street and run for your lives!  I do it to him all the time.


Seriously though, then they should pull strange-looking, skinny white men over and make sure they're not psychotic serial killers...and young Asian girls for not knowing how to drive properly, and...Giraffe for wearing a cute outfit...and Munkeysgirl for not explaining what her moniker means...and why do you have Superiorlobes? 

superiorlobe

Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2004, 04:22:04 PM »
My bf is one of those young black men - ha ha - girls, you are most welcome to cross over to the other side of the street and run for your lives!  I do it to him all the time.


Seriously though, then they should pull strange-looking, skinny white men over and make sure they're not psychotic serial killers...and young Asian girls for not knowing how to drive properly, and...Giraffe for wearing a cute outfit...and Munkeysgirl for not explaining what her moniker means...and why do you have Superiorlobes? 


Ho hum.  The laboriousness of explaining obvious things to stupid people.  Here we go: skinny white men aren't psychotic serial killers in a great enough proportion to warrant singling them out.  Young black men, on the other hand, are imprisoned at a rate of something like 40%. If a skinny white man has a shaved head, and is wearing a leather jacket with a swastika on it, though, then it is reasonable to jump to negative conclusions about him on that basis.  As for your other examples, they're completely irrelevant.

I have superiorlobes because I am smarter than you.

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Re: Terror in the Skies
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2004, 05:06:15 PM »
It's my belief that black men are incarcerated at such a high rate because of the racial profiling. Whites commit crimes in just the same proportion, think underage drinking, fake IDs, DUIs, drug abuse, shoplifting, prostitution, burglary, etc. The only crime that I can think of that might be commited more by blacks than whites is murder (I may be wrong). An interesting illustration is that more whites are on death row than blacks.