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Author Topic: What would you consider a diploma mill?  (Read 16923 times)

Happy_Weasel

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2006, 09:12:32 PM »
Even on the first day?

Happy_Weasel

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2006, 10:40:25 PM »
Maybe I should talk to a professor then, huh?

SuicideNixon

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2006, 02:51:03 PM »
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale
When a President does it, that means that it is not illegal. -Richard Nixon

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Actual 1L

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 02:54:09 PM »
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.

SuicideNixon

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 03:13:03 PM »
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.

even though yale doesn't have "grades" they still might have a limit on the number of honors they give per class, which is effectively a curve. and while all the top schools save one or two don't rank students or allow employers to screen students prior to an interview, firms are easily able to calculate a student's approximate class rank and base their decisions based on this. the reason the curve doesn't matter as much is because these students are just in higher demand generally. but plenty of firms disqualify candidates even at top schools based on grades
When a President does it, that means that it is not illegal. -Richard Nixon

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SuicideNixon

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2006, 03:18:05 PM »
So basically, if you graduate from a T3 or a T4, you can only get a job by starting a practice with a few friends or a new firm. At a T2 or non-T25 T1, you can get an average job and at a T25, you can get any job for new associates that are available in your reigon and a T14 can get any new associate's job wherever.

Uhhhh, this is not correct.

I totally agree.

The most difficult part of going to a top law school is getting in. The easiest part is getting good grades.

The easiest part of going to a lesser ranked school is getting in. The hardest part is getting good grades.

Many of the top schools have no grade curve to speak of, most lower ranked schools have one, and typically more vicious the lower you go down.

Your grades and your networking will have the biggest effect on what first job you can get. Good grades and being an effective hand shaker and kisser of babies goes a long way at any school. There are graduates who do well and are good lawyers from schools all along the rank continuum, and those that do not and are not, all along the rank continuum.

Going to a top school does not guarantee alone you will be a success in law practice; neither does going to a bottom school doom you to hanging out shingle on your own and being mediocre. Top schools allow you more opportunity to rely on the school to land you a job; lower ranked schools just mean you need to focus more on creating those opertunites for yourself.


i dont know of a top school that doesn't have a curve. maybe yale

Well Yale is surely one example, as they do not even have grades.  Many top schools, though, may officially have a curve, but in reality it is a farce.  For instance, at Northwestern, to graduate with high honors, you have to average over a 4.0.  And graduating with second honors is usually requires about a 3.97 GPA.  They also do not rank students nor do they allow employers to screen students and their GPA before an interview.  So yea, there may be a curve, but its impact on students is minimal at many of the top schools.

Yup. A B+ grade curve is not one that going to affect the average law stundents performance negatively. You would have to actually work at getting a C- in a class like that. A C- curve on the other hand guarantees that 50% of a class will have a grade at or below that; ouch.

I think for law students looking at firms that are familiar with their law schools, the actual grade doesn't matter, only their approximate class rank. Chicago doesnt even have grades, they have 20 different numbers; wisconsin also has a number system; harvard has an 8.0 system. if a 3.2 is top 5% it doesn't make sense to put that person below a 3.25 that is bottom half.
When a President does it, that means that it is not illegal. -Richard Nixon

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/display.php?cycle=0405&user=SuicideNixon

Happy_Weasel

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 03:20:26 PM »
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

Actual 1L

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2006, 03:22:36 PM »
Hmmm....maybe. You just need to be in the top half to get a tier-appropriate job and to get into the top decile for a job a tier higher(or to get a SCOTUS clerkship if you are T14). That's what I figure.

You need more than that to get a SCOTUS clerkship.

Happy_Weasel

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2006, 03:23:56 PM »
Top decile at a T14 isn't enough? I would say top 5% @ HaYaStCoChiNY and maybe VaPenn then? So maybe twice as longitudial and latidudially exclusive, T7 5%?

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Re: What would you consider a diploma mill?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2006, 03:26:51 PM »
Top decile at a T14 isn't enough?

There are what, no more than about 30 SCOTUS clerks every year?  You have to have top notch grades from a great school along with the demonstrated ability to research and write with the best of them.  That usually means Law Review editor and published works.  On top of that, clerks usually hold similar political beliefs of their justice, so throw that in the mix, too.