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DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?

RockyMarciano

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 05:21:12 PM »
I was reading up on the Sudan crisis these past couple of months. Through research you will find that China has a strong hold in Sudan. The president of Chad was installed by the Khartoum government. Interesting enough, it is the tribe of the Chad president that is being massacred by the Arab militia. Suprisingly enough, it is the Christian Republicans that keep placing Sudan on the Bush agenda.

Sadly the United States does not have a huge interest in Sudan. It is trying to buddy up with China and taking Sudan away from them would be hurtful for our relationship. After Somalia, the United States is unwilling to go on humanitarian rescue missions. 

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2006, 06:08:25 PM »
I was reading up on the Sudan crisis these past couple of months. Through research you will find that China has a strong hold in Sudan. The president of Chad was installed by the Khartoum government. Interesting enough, it is the tribe of the Chad president that is being massacred by the Arab militia. Suprisingly enough, it is the Christian Republicans that keep placing Sudan on the Bush agenda.

Sadly the United States does not have a huge interest in Sudan. It is trying to buddy up with China and taking Sudan away from them would be hurtful for our relationship. After Somalia, the United States is unwilling to go on humanitarian rescue missions. 

bush agenda bogged down by "iraq war" naysayers...it is a part of the problem.

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2006, 10:52:38 PM »
Good point Rocky. I'm looking for Taiwan to eventually recieve the same cold shoulder

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2006, 01:08:22 PM »
Good point Rocky. I'm looking for Taiwan to eventually recieve the same cold shoulder


old ties are hard to break.

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2006, 01:32:40 PM »
Good point Rocky. I'm looking for Taiwan to eventually recieve the same cold shoulder


old ties are hard to break.

They will if it means gaining China as a political ally on the Security COuncil and Korea talks.

redemption

Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2006, 03:46:43 PM »
I was reading up on the Sudan crisis these past couple of months. Through research you will find that China has a strong hold in Sudan. The president of Chad was installed by the Khartoum government. Interesting enough, it is the tribe of the Chad president that is being massacred by the Arab militia. Suprisingly enough, it is the Christian Republicans that keep placing Sudan on the Bush agenda.

Sadly the United States does not have a huge interest in Sudan. It is trying to buddy up with China and taking Sudan away from them would be hurtful for our relationship. After Somalia, the United States is unwilling to go on humanitarian rescue missions. 

Several statements in here that I do not believe are true:

1. It is not the tribe of the Chadian President that is being massacred; it is no A tribe at all, by any definition. Multiple "tribes" are affected and there is no reason to believe that there is any "tribal" difference between those being killed and those doing the killing. They are the same. Journalists, either themselves being lazy or assuming the their readership is, have decided to label the killers "arabs" and the killed "africans". None of this is even remotely accurate, no matter how much semantic stress is put on those two words.

2. China does not have any effective hold on the Sudanese government, and has no relationship with Sudan that is anywhere nearly as important as its commercial and other relationships either elsewhere in Africa or with the United States or both.

3. It could arguably be true that the US doesn't have a strong interest in Sudan, but only if we leave aside the issue of the supposed "war on terror". It seems to me the the United States government has articulated this idea - of leaving no safe haven for a particular kind of terrorism - as its primary foreign and military objective. Sudan is known to have harbored Osama bin Laden in the past and there is no reason to suppose that it would not do so in the future. It would be an extraordinarily imaginative person who supposed that they are not harbouring such people there now. These are the stated reasons why we are in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it would not be a hard sell to the majority of Americans to suggest that these - together with genocide prevention - are legitimate reasons for going into Sudan.

4. For those people who believe that US foreign policy is driven purely by the thirst for oil, I would indicate that Sudan has oilfields - large ones, possibly the largest reserves in Africa - in the south. That's one of the reasons why the  civil war there was so protracted and bloody and why the government was so tenacious.

5. It is not meaningfully true that the US is "unwilling" to go on humanitarian campaigns after Somalia. The US has always been "unwilling", and, in any case has nevertheless conducted humanitarian operations in Kosovo after the Somalia episode.

The situation in Sudan is not complex; it is our invented rationales for not intervening that are

redemption

Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2006, 04:05:07 PM »
I'm going to throw my opinion in on this one. From my experience as an analyst what does the U.S. do about Sudan? We do nothing. Sorry folks but thats super power diplomacy. Darfur isnt the only place in the world suffering. Pakistan, Nepal, Yemen, Columbia, Venezuela, Phillipenes, Korea, Mongolia, Bangladesh. No one seems to care about any of these places. If Suudan wasnt in Africa would this thread exist? The United States is still reeling from past commitments to countries that have no real signifigance to our econonomic or security outlook. Our obsolete and illegal promise to Taiwan in the Cold War is the only reason we have problems with China. How can you not condone Iraq and want to go into Sudan? Its not our place to intervene.

If you want to be mad at someone... go after the crooked the UN. If the secretary general wasn't taking kickbacks from Iraq we wouldnt be over there cleaning up that mess. Its the UN's job and they dropped the ball just like they did in Rwanda. You know assessments show less than 1000 armed peacekeepers could have contained the incident in Rwanda, but what did the UN do...nothing. What did Belguim do (it was their fault). Nothing. It wasn't our problem. The reason Bush blew of the U.N is because they wont do anything. If people started pointing fingers at the apathy of the international community instead of Bush somthing might get done.

If the United States did go into Sudan it just would be one more conflict with the Islamic community in a time of political upheaval in the region (Isreal, Iraq). Even if the U.S. did go in what would we do? End the civil war by having everyone turn against us? It would just turn into another front for jihadists and anti-western militants to take potshots at U.S. forces. People are all about sending troops in to every part of the world but lose intrest when people start getting killed. When I was in the military you have no idea how frustrating that "send in troops and its all better" mentality became. That is all I have to say.

That's all you have to say? How cute.

You inability to ditinguish between genocide in Sudan and civil conflict in the other countries that you have mentioned is beyond disheartening.

Your assessment of various countries as being irrelevant to the US security and economic outlook is gutsy in a very awe-inspiring way. I imagine that you would also have included Afghanistan in this superb analysis of yours if you had made it on September 10th, 2001.

Most interesting, though, is your idea that the US has to have a security or economic interest in a country before it intervenes to stop an ongoing genocide. It is, after all, not our place to intervene. You would stick to that same logic, would you, if you were transported back in time to the era when Germans were killing off European Jews?

Let me fill you in on an open secret: the UN is its member countries; it is not an independent sovereign entity. The leading sovereign entity of which the UN is comprised is the United States. To rail at the UN is futile. Rail at your own government. (You will be interested to know - as apparently you do not - that the UN Secretariat, when it eventually got around to responding to the Rwanda genocide, requested some specialized radio-jamming equipment from the Pentagon in order to jam local Rwandan radio and slow down the rate of killing. It refused.


RockyMarciano

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2006, 10:19:39 PM »
Response to redemption:

1) Sorry. One of the tribes being massacred by the Arab militia is related to the Chadian president.

2) Sudan and China do have a strong economic link.According to the CIA World Fact Book, China is a major trading partner of Sudan taking in up to 66.9% of its exports.  Please refer to the following link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21143-2004Dec22.html

3)It is also reported that Sudan expelled Osama Bin Laden in 1998. 'Osama Bin Laden was expelled, training camps were closed, and the US state department says Sudan has "deepened its cooperation in investigating and arresting extremists".' This is from the following BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3853671.stm

4)I did not say our policy is driven by oil. I just said that we do not have a big enough reason according to the White House to go into Sudan. The Mogadishu Line is a term used by many people to describe the point in which U.S. intervention no longer benefits them. 

5) Correct me if I am wrong but Kosovo was a NATO operation and not a sole U.S. operation. After Somolia, the United States has been hesitant of entering into battle with the United Nations commanding its forces. If I am wrong than touche.

For those that care. It seems that there is a state of war between Chad and Sudan now. So, it seems that any political ties between Chad and Sudan have been broken.

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 03:13:13 PM »
I'm going to throw my opinion in on this one. From my experience as an analyst what does the U.S. do about Sudan? We do nothing. Sorry folks but thats super power diplomacy. Darfur isnt the only place in the world suffering. Pakistan, Nepal, Yemen, Columbia, Venezuela, Phillipenes, Korea, Mongolia, Bangladesh. No one seems to care about any of these places. If Suudan wasnt in Africa would this thread exist? The United States is still reeling from past commitments to countries that have no real signifigance to our econonomic or security outlook. Our obsolete and illegal promise to Taiwan in the Cold War is the only reason we have problems with China. How can you not condone Iraq and want to go into Sudan? Its not our place to intervene.

If you want to be mad at someone... go after the crooked the UN. If the secretary general wasn't taking kickbacks from Iraq we wouldnt be over there cleaning up that mess. Its the UN's job and they dropped the ball just like they did in Rwanda. You know assessments show less than 1000 armed peacekeepers could have contained the incident in Rwanda, but what did the UN do...nothing. What did Belguim do (it was their fault). Nothing. It wasn't our problem. The reason Bush blew of the U.N is because they wont do anything. If people started pointing fingers at the apathy of the international community instead of Bush somthing might get done.

If the United States did go into Sudan it just would be one more conflict with the Islamic community in a time of political upheaval in the region (Isreal, Iraq). Even if the U.S. did go in what would we do? End the civil war by having everyone turn against us? It would just turn into another front for jihadists and anti-western militants to take potshots at U.S. forces. People are all about sending troops in to every part of the world but lose intrest when people start getting killed. When I was in the military you have no idea how frustrating that "send in troops and its all better" mentality became. That is all I have to say.

That's all you have to say? How cute.

You inability to ditinguish between genocide in Sudan and civil conflict in the other countries that you have mentioned is beyond disheartening.

Your assessment of various countries as being irrelevant to the US security and economic outlook is gutsy in a very awe-inspiring way. I imagine that you would also have included Afghanistan in this superb analysis of yours if you had made it on September 10th, 2001.

Most interesting, though, is your idea that the US has to have a security or economic interest in a country before it intervenes to stop an ongoing genocide. It is, after all, not our place to intervene. You would stick to that same logic, would you, if you were transported back in time to the era when Germans were killing off European Jews?

Let me fill you in on an open secret: the UN is its member countries; it is not an independent sovereign entity. The leading sovereign entity of which the UN is comprised is the United States. To rail at the UN is futile. Rail at your own government. (You will be interested to know - as apparently you do not - that the UN Secretariat, when it eventually got around to responding to the Rwanda genocide, requested some specialized radio-jamming equipment from the Pentagon in order to jam local Rwandan radio and slow down the rate of killing. It refused.



Oh when we do not do our research . As if Rocky wasnt enough I feel the need to adrdess your points.

1)No I would not have Afghanistan produces more opium than any other country and is also the worlds largest arms dealer next to malaysisa. It was also a conduit for the ISID (Iranian Intelligence). Besides Bin Ladin Hezbellah had a major operating node in Afghanistan as well as Chechen rebels. The activity in Sudan never compared to Afghanistan. Maybe Libya maybe but never Sudan.  And airfields in that location (Baghram) place U.S. forces in a perfect defense posture to operate in SW ASIA and the middle east (IRAQ, IRAN, YEMEN). Afghanistan was on the hit second only to Iraq (yes ahead of NK and IRAN) before 9/11. Period.

2)Thats policy of incentives is classical american foreign policy. I mean sec of states admit to in (Kissinger's Diplomacy). You can ask yourself why did we help so many politcal and economic weaklings in the past...COld War containment...why somalia....it was a UN HUMANITARIAN MISSION GONE BAD. Its not not it was a deliberate intervention like SUDAN OR RWANDA would have been.

3) I cant believe you brought up the WWII comparison. The reason Hitler got to the point he did is because the U.S. DID NOT INTERVENE!!!! The U.S. was being begged by the allies to enter WWII and REFUSED. Congress argued that it would be HARMFUL TO AMERICAN COMMERCE to enter the war. Entering the  wasnt gong to happen until pearl harbor.

RockyMarciano

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Re: DARFUR: can we help or has our Master become...Complacency?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 04:54:05 PM »
SuperOCDman,
    Nice lists of acceptances. Just wanted to say.

Peace,
Rocky