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Author Topic: Happy Birthday American Censorship  (Read 4040 times)

MaroonOut2005

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2004, 07:58:58 PM »
I think we are moving from general concepts to more specific ones.  When I refer to "punishment," I mean in all types, not just business.  If I publicly supported Nazis, I would be socially ostracized.  That, in my opinion, is a form of punishment.  Are you saying you should make it illegal for people that disagree with a person to ignore them?  Again, in my opinion, being socially punished is still a form of punishment, so you can't make it illegal without trampling on the rights of others.  Thus, in a general sense, it would be impossible to completely stop all punishments of public speech without trampling on the rights of others.

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

Actually, you said you thought it is good for society to punish political speech. 

It would not be impossible to stop punishment for political speech.  If I give a speech criticizing the government, my boss cannot fire me unless we have signed a contract that prohibits me in some way.  Whoopi was fired because she diminished her value as a commercial spokesperson.  Her speech directly affected the value of the service she was contracted to provide.  Short of that, Slimfast would be out of line firing her.

How can it be a free society if my boss can fire just because he disagrees with my politics?  It used to work that way.  People were often threatened with firing or fired if they did not support the boss's candidate.  Laws were passed to make that illegal.


HAHA, you missed my point.  I'm not saying I would punish someone for political speech.  I'm not saying anyone should intentionally punish a person for political speech.  I'm just saying that, since we live in a society that embraces freedom, it would be impossible to stop social punishment of political speech because you couldn't do so without trampling on the freedoms of other entities.  Its ironic, but an inevitablity.  However, let's pretend we can live in a world where everyone can say want they want, without ANY sort of punishment (that includes society, finanical, etc).  If this were the case, how would you be able to tell who was truly passionate about their cause and who was just trying to hear themselves talk?  In our society, the people who truly need to get their message across will do so, regardless of the concequences.  That fact makes their voice all the more powerful. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

If you honestly think that that punishing speech is a good thing, I'm afraid to disagree with you.   



jgruber

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2004, 10:02:28 PM »
If you supported Nazis in certain times and places.  In other times in the US you would be  applauded.

What you seem to be telling me is that unpopular opinions should be punished.  This is counterproductive.  If this were desirable, we would still have slavery.  The 40 hour work  week and paid vacation would never have come into being.

If you punish unpopular opinion, you destroy free speech.



I think we are moving from general concepts to more specific ones.  When I refer to "punishment," I mean in all types, not just business.  If I publicly supported Nazis, I would be socially ostracized.  That, in my opinion, is a form of punishment.  Are you saying you should make it illegal for people that disagree with a person to ignore them?  Again, in my opinion, being socially punished is still a form of punishment, so you can't make it illegal without trampling on the rights of others.  Thus, in a general sense, it would be impossible to completely stop all punishments of public speech without trampling on the rights of others.

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

Actually, you said you thought it is good for society to punish political speech. 

It would not be impossible to stop punishment for political speech.  If I give a speech criticizing the government, my boss cannot fire me unless we have signed a contract that prohibits me in some way.  Whoopi was fired because she diminished her value as a commercial spokesperson.  Her speech directly affected the value of the service she was contracted to provide.  Short of that, Slimfast would be out of line firing her.

How can it be a free society if my boss can fire just because he disagrees with my politics?  It used to work that way.  People were often threatened with firing or fired if they did not support the boss's candidate.  Laws were passed to make that illegal.


HAHA, you missed my point.  I'm not saying I would punish someone for political speech.  I'm not saying anyone should intentionally punish a person for political speech.  I'm just saying that, since we live in a society that embraces freedom, it would be impossible to stop social punishment of political speech because you couldn't do so without trampling on the freedoms of other entities.  Its ironic, but an inevitablity.  However, let's pretend we can live in a world where everyone can say want they want, without ANY sort of punishment (that includes society, finanical, etc).  If this were the case, how would you be able to tell who was truly passionate about their cause and who was just trying to hear themselves talk?  In our society, the people who truly need to get their message across will do so, regardless of the concequences.  That fact makes their voice all the more powerful. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

If you honestly think that that punishing speech is a good thing, I'm afraid to disagree with you.   



MaroonOut2005

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2004, 01:40:32 AM »
You seem to be missing my point.  I'm saying that what you are proposing, which is to completely stop all and every form of punishment for speech, is impossible.  For example, punishment can come in the form of people speaking up against you.  This is certainly true in politics.  If a politician says something that is unpopular, people may speak up against it.  In a sense, this politican is being punished for his speech.  So the question is, how do you stop punishment in this scenario?  You can't without taking away the freedom of speech from one party or another.  All I am saying is that, in my opinion, you're idea that there should be no social punishment for free speech is an impossibility. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

If you supported Nazis in certain times and places.  In other times in the US you would be  applauded.

What you seem to be telling me is that unpopular opinions should be punished.  This is counterproductive.  If this were desirable, we would still have slavery.  The 40 hour work  week and paid vacation would never have come into being.

If you punish unpopular opinion, you destroy free speech.



I think we are moving from general concepts to more specific ones.  When I refer to "punishment," I mean in all types, not just business.  If I publicly supported Nazis, I would be socially ostracized.  That, in my opinion, is a form of punishment.  Are you saying you should make it illegal for people that disagree with a person to ignore them?  Again, in my opinion, being socially punished is still a form of punishment, so you can't make it illegal without trampling on the rights of others.  Thus, in a general sense, it would be impossible to completely stop all punishments of public speech without trampling on the rights of others.

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

Actually, you said you thought it is good for society to punish political speech. 

It would not be impossible to stop punishment for political speech.  If I give a speech criticizing the government, my boss cannot fire me unless we have signed a contract that prohibits me in some way.  Whoopi was fired because she diminished her value as a commercial spokesperson.  Her speech directly affected the value of the service she was contracted to provide.  Short of that, Slimfast would be out of line firing her.

How can it be a free society if my boss can fire just because he disagrees with my politics?  It used to work that way.  People were often threatened with firing or fired if they did not support the boss's candidate.  Laws were passed to make that illegal.


HAHA, you missed my point.  I'm not saying I would punish someone for political speech.  I'm not saying anyone should intentionally punish a person for political speech.  I'm just saying that, since we live in a society that embraces freedom, it would be impossible to stop social punishment of political speech because you couldn't do so without trampling on the freedoms of other entities.  Its ironic, but an inevitablity.  However, let's pretend we can live in a world where everyone can say want they want, without ANY sort of punishment (that includes society, finanical, etc).  If this were the case, how would you be able to tell who was truly passionate about their cause and who was just trying to hear themselves talk?  In our society, the people who truly need to get their message across will do so, regardless of the concequences.  That fact makes their voice all the more powerful. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason

If you honestly think that that punishing speech is a good thing, I'm afraid to disagree with you.   



jgruber

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2004, 07:38:27 AM »
What did I propose? 

You seem to be missing my point.  I'm saying that what you are proposing, which is to completely stop all and every form of punishment for speech, is impossible.  For example, punishment can come in the form of people speaking up against you.  This is certainly true in politics.  If a politician says something that is unpopular, people may speak up against it.  In a sense, this politican is being punished for his speech.  So the question is, how do you stop punishment in this scenario?  You can't without taking away the freedom of speech from one party or another.  All I am saying is that, in my opinion, you're idea that there should be no social punishment for free speech is an impossibility. 



MaroonOut2005

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2004, 11:31:58 AM »
Well, unless I missed something, you keep saying that punishment of political speech is a bad thing.  That implies that you think it should be stopped.  You even said it wouldn't be impossible to stop punishment for political speech.
  I am saying that, since punishment can come in the form of public disagreement and other social punishments that shouldn't be stopped, it would be impossible to stop all forms of punishment for political speech. 
  On that note, since it is impossible to stop all forms of punishment of political speech, I think our current structure is the best alternative.  No one can be legally punished for political speech, but there are other punishments.  That is unavoidable.  However, these social punishments help clarify who is truly passionate about their cause.  If you can find a better alternative, I would be glad to hear it.  However, due to the self-defeating philosophy of trying to stop all forms of punishment for political speech, I doubt that there is a better way. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason
Quote

jgruber

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2004, 11:35:26 AM »
I just said it is a bad thing.  Free speech should not be punished.  As you've suggested, the 'cure' could be worse than the 'illness'.

Well, unless I missed something, you keep saying that punishment of political speech is a bad thing.  That implies that you think it should be stopped.  You even said it wouldn't be impossible to stop punishment for political speech.
  I am saying that, since punishment can come in the form of public disagreement and other social punishments that shouldn't be stopped, it would be impossible to stop all forms of punishment for political speech. 
  On that note, since it is impossible to stop all forms of punishment of political speech, I think our current structure is the best alternative.  No one can be legally punished for political speech, but there are other punishments.  That is unavoidable.  However, these social punishments help clarify who is truly passionate about their cause.  If you can find a better alternative, I would be glad to hear it.  However, due to the self-defeating philosophy of trying to stop all forms of punishment for political speech, I doubt that there is a better way. 

Thanks and Gig 'Em,
Jason
Quote

jgruber

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Re: Happy Birthday American Censorship
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2004, 12:31:05 AM »
FBI, Cops Keeping Tabs on NYC Protesters

Monday, August 16, 2004

NYC Learns Lessons From Boston Convention
NEW YORK  Federal agents and city police are keeping tabs on people they say might try to cause trouble at the Republican National Convention (search), questioning activists, making unannounced visits and monitoring Web sites and meetings.

The law enforcement effort has been going on quietly, overshadowed in public by talk of counterterrorism measures planned for the Aug. 30-Sept. 2 event.

"We're not engaging in surveillance of groups or individuals without legal predication," said Jim Margolin, spokesman for the New York office of the FBI.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129102,00.html