Law School Discussion

Tookie Smith

Young Esq.

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2005, 12:21:20 AM »
 
I am in no way against the death penalty. However Stan Williams deserves to live. Not because he is a good guy now, but because they only want to kill him for political reasons.  It is sad that Arnold Shrwartzanegro's decision is going to be based on what will help his career whether in politics or Hollywood. Also, no one talks about the murders.  We don't even know if he's really guilty. An all white jury convicted him in LA in the 70s. It is also not fair that they want to kill him only because he formed the Crips. He's not even on death row for that so why is it an issue.  Also when the Crips were formed it was in no way foreseeable that it would reach the level it is now. I say Tookie should live just because his case was shakey from the beginning and the Crips is just a diversion the media wants to use to divert attention away from that week ass case they had against him.

"Save Tookie"

P.S. Free Pimp C too

RockyMarciano

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2005, 01:03:47 PM »
I think Tookie is an example of the prision system working. Jails are not meant to keep criminals locked up but instead to rehabilitate them. I mean, Tookie went from a thug to a community activist. This is probably the best example I have seen of the system actually working.

Also, think about it this way, if Tookie lives he may do more good for us than harm. Dead he is nothing but alive he can do some more community activism. Perhaps, he can help teach the young generation that the gang life is vicious and damaging to you, friends, and family. I think of it in Utilitarian terms, Do we benefit more from his death or his continued life?

John Galt

Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2005, 09:14:33 AM »
From what I've read, I don't see any reason to grant clemancy. He was convicted of numerous crimes including murder and conspiring to murder. If Timothy Mcveigh wrote a children's book and repented, should he have been granted clemancy as well? No, he committed the crimes. Period.

If there were a question of due process or whether or not he actually committed the crimes he has been convicted of, I could see an argument. Yet, there is no question that he did those deeds. No litany of excuses or children's books will rectify what he has done to his community.


Young Esq.

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2005, 06:12:52 PM »
From what I've read, I don't see any reason to grant clemancy. He was convicted of numerous crimes including murder and conspiring to murder. If Timothy Mcveigh wrote a children's book and repented, should he have been granted clemancy as well? No, he committed the crimes. Period.

If there were a question of due process or whether or not he actually committed the crimes he has been convicted of, I could see an argument. Yet, there is no question that he did those deeds. No litany of excuses or children's books will rectify what he has done to his community.



Pump your breaks. He was convicted in the 70's by a white jury and was a member of the Crips.  This means if he is innocent, an all white jury would still convict him. And also I truly believe he may be innocent, however I think he knows the person who did the crime. Even so the case has a lot of holes and his sentence should be ruduce to life.

ChlorasepticRelief

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 06:19:41 PM »

the death penalty is not a penalty...it is retribution...but it is colorist genocide as well as not a penalty at all...it is not a sentance but a period.

an overhaul of the death penalty is necessary...starting with the name...then the application.

it is a "terminal retribution" and it should be automatically applied to chronic and mass murderers and chronic rapists.


Quoted for truth.

He is more valuable to society alive than he is dead... the only reason to execute him is for retribution, something that I feel has no place in our judicial system.

John Galt

Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2005, 07:15:09 PM »
From what I've read, I don't see any reason to grant clemancy. He was convicted of numerous crimes including murder and conspiring to murder. If Timothy Mcveigh wrote a children's book and repented, should he have been granted clemancy as well? No, he committed the crimes. Period.

If there were a question of due process or whether or not he actually committed the crimes he has been convicted of, I could see an argument. Yet, there is no question that he did those deeds. No litany of excuses or children's books will rectify what he has done to his community.



Pump your breaks. He was convicted in the 70's by a white jury and was a member of the Crips.  This means if he is innocent, an all white jury would still convict him. And also I truly believe he may be innocent, however I think he knows the person who did the crime. Even so the case has a lot of holes and his sentence should be ruduce to life.

I'm not sure an all white jury in california in the 70s is the same as an all white jury in alabama in the 40s, ok? So first, I don't buy the whole jury convicted just to convict argument. Second, your belief is irrelevant. A jury convicted him. Our judicial system does not revolve around asking each civilian what their opinion is.  Additionally, you speak as if he was convicted of a crime...he was convicted of many crimes. As far as I understand it only one of the murders he was convicted of is being challeged by his attorneys (I might add that there is pretty strong evidence against him in that one as well).

There is an additional argument that you make that I think holds a great deal of weight. I think I would have to agree that if there is some reasonable doubt as to the legitimacy of the conviction then the punishment should be reduced to life in prison. So if you're looking at it from that perspective, then I have much respect for your position. However, I'm not sure the facts speak to any legitimate contest of the convictions...this seems to be a case where the guy did some positive things from prison and should therefore be granted clemancy. I don't buy that argument.


maxambit

Re: Stanley Tookie Williams
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2005, 08:17:24 PM »
Im a big fan of philosophy of law. Posters and readers on this Board will differ in their conclusions about the death penalty and the morality of this form of desert-based retribution. There are no strong arguments (in my opinion) for using the death penalty as a tool of criminal deterrence. It is always a good idea to know how to argue properly for the position or conclusion with which you agree. The following papers provide good and easy-to-follow philosophical defenses of opposing desert-based positions about using the death penalty for retribution:

Pro-Death Penalty on Moral Grounds:

Haag, Ernest van deg. "In Defense of the Death Penalty: A Practical and Moral Analysis." Criminal Bulletin, vol. 14 no. 1 (1978). 51-68

Anti-Death Penalty on Moral Grounds:


Nathanson, Stephen. "Should We Execute Those Who Deserve To Die?" from An Eye for an Eye: The Morality of Punishing by Death. Rowan & Littlefield, 1987. 42-59.

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Both pieces and others on the death penalty can be found in Feinberg and Coleman's Philosophy of Law (Seventh Edition) Thomson Wadsworth, 2004.

Economists pretty much agree that the death penalty makes little economic sense.

maxambit

Clemency Denied
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 03:14:13 PM »

RockyMarciano

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 04:48:37 PM »
Man, that sucks. However, i still feel that Tookie would be worth more to society alive rather than dead. I wonder what Gray Davis would have done.

dbgirl

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Re: Tookie Smith
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2005, 05:28:58 PM »
Gray Davis would have done the same thing. He was known to be very harsh regarding clemency.