Quote from: bluewarrior on October 31, 2005, 11:38:40 PMQuote from: SWatson on October 29, 2005, 06:23:30 AMQuote from: SCgrad on October 21, 2005, 08:16:44 AMPS Bill was a great president,lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,first consecutive balanced budgets in foreverlowest welfare rolls in thirty yearsAdvanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)Improved trade throughout AsiaGreatest Econ. growth in everHuge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 yearsReduced the size of the governmenti'm bored at work, so i'm going to argue with you on some of these points. first of all, welfare, balanced budgets, and reduced size of governments probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the great (numerically, not qualitatively) republican revolution of '94. similarly, low unemployment (though not necessarily for minorities) and economic growth had a lot to do with some of the painful restructing of the government back during republican regimes. improved trade throughout asia probably would have happened regardless due to the chinese opening up their economy (and incidentally their loans are now financing iraq and a bunch of other things). as for improving workers rights, yeah maybe he did improve their rights but 1. i don't really care that much about this particular issue, sorry 2. we also have to look at how this affects american workers in the long run (i.e. makes US a worse place to do business leading to outsourcing? debatable). as for the environment, yes he did good by protecting lands but i wish he'd done more, especially to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. i hate all the !#$&%^%#$&$^%$%$^$&*%^%#$%^$&%^^#%$#*%^&$%^^#$%^^&%%^#$%#*&%^%^#$%^^&(%^#$#$%#$^&*%&(%^%#$@%^%&$&^%&( SUV's and pickup trucks that are out there for no good reason (people who have a GOOD reason, please ignore). but okay, i'll still give him that one.more to the point, i think presidents are remembered by what they achieve in the long run. truman was wildly unpopular at the end of his presidency but is widely recognized as a great president because of what he accomplished in terms of building the post WWII structure. clinton should be thought of in terms of what he leaves behind. i think that given what he had to work with and what he accomplished, i'll bet that history rates him as... average.yes...and what of the bush jr. legacy...do tell...i am not at this time free to comment on w.
Quote from: SWatson on October 29, 2005, 06:23:30 AMQuote from: SCgrad on October 21, 2005, 08:16:44 AMPS Bill was a great president,lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,first consecutive balanced budgets in foreverlowest welfare rolls in thirty yearsAdvanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)Improved trade throughout AsiaGreatest Econ. growth in everHuge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 yearsReduced the size of the governmenti'm bored at work, so i'm going to argue with you on some of these points. first of all, welfare, balanced budgets, and reduced size of governments probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the great (numerically, not qualitatively) republican revolution of '94. similarly, low unemployment (though not necessarily for minorities) and economic growth had a lot to do with some of the painful restructing of the government back during republican regimes. improved trade throughout asia probably would have happened regardless due to the chinese opening up their economy (and incidentally their loans are now financing iraq and a bunch of other things). as for improving workers rights, yeah maybe he did improve their rights but 1. i don't really care that much about this particular issue, sorry 2. we also have to look at how this affects american workers in the long run (i.e. makes US a worse place to do business leading to outsourcing? debatable). as for the environment, yes he did good by protecting lands but i wish he'd done more, especially to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. i hate all the !#$&%^%#$&$^%$%$^$&*%^%#$%^$&%^^#%$#*%^&$%^^#$%^^&%%^#$%#*&%^%^#$%^^&(%^#$#$%#$^&*%&(%^%#$@%^%&$&^%&( SUV's and pickup trucks that are out there for no good reason (people who have a GOOD reason, please ignore). but okay, i'll still give him that one.more to the point, i think presidents are remembered by what they achieve in the long run. truman was wildly unpopular at the end of his presidency but is widely recognized as a great president because of what he accomplished in terms of building the post WWII structure. clinton should be thought of in terms of what he leaves behind. i think that given what he had to work with and what he accomplished, i'll bet that history rates him as... average.yes...and what of the bush jr. legacy...do tell...
Quote from: SCgrad on October 21, 2005, 08:16:44 AMPS Bill was a great president,lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,first consecutive balanced budgets in foreverlowest welfare rolls in thirty yearsAdvanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)Improved trade throughout AsiaGreatest Econ. growth in everHuge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 yearsReduced the size of the governmenti'm bored at work, so i'm going to argue with you on some of these points. first of all, welfare, balanced budgets, and reduced size of governments probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the great (numerically, not qualitatively) republican revolution of '94. similarly, low unemployment (though not necessarily for minorities) and economic growth had a lot to do with some of the painful restructing of the government back during republican regimes. improved trade throughout asia probably would have happened regardless due to the chinese opening up their economy (and incidentally their loans are now financing iraq and a bunch of other things). as for improving workers rights, yeah maybe he did improve their rights but 1. i don't really care that much about this particular issue, sorry 2. we also have to look at how this affects american workers in the long run (i.e. makes US a worse place to do business leading to outsourcing? debatable). as for the environment, yes he did good by protecting lands but i wish he'd done more, especially to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. i hate all the !#$&%^%#$&$^%$%$^$&*%^%#$%^$&%^^#%$#*%^&$%^^#$%^^&%%^#$%#*&%^%^#$%^^&(%^#$#$%#$^&*%&(%^%#$@%^%&$&^%&( SUV's and pickup trucks that are out there for no good reason (people who have a GOOD reason, please ignore). but okay, i'll still give him that one.more to the point, i think presidents are remembered by what they achieve in the long run. truman was wildly unpopular at the end of his presidency but is widely recognized as a great president because of what he accomplished in terms of building the post WWII structure. clinton should be thought of in terms of what he leaves behind. i think that given what he had to work with and what he accomplished, i'll bet that history rates him as... average.
PS Bill was a great president,lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,first consecutive balanced budgets in foreverlowest welfare rolls in thirty yearsAdvanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)Improved trade throughout AsiaGreatest Econ. growth in everHuge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 yearsReduced the size of the government
under investigation, eh? what putz.
Quote from: bluewarrior on November 01, 2005, 12:10:28 AMit is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?speculative. but then of course you have access to all sorts of information to which we mere mortals are not privy and as for the credit, it goes to our men and women in uniform. no one else.
it is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?
Quote from: bluewarrior on November 01, 2005, 01:16:42 PMQuote from: SWatson on November 01, 2005, 01:43:42 AMQuote from: bluewarrior on November 01, 2005, 12:10:28 AMit is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?speculative. but then of course you have access to all sorts of information to which we mere mortals are not privy and as for the credit, it goes to our men and women in uniform. no one else. there you go again compartmentalizing...common information? common sense...intuitive thinking...you can't do that??? ...um...the credit lies in americans AND men and women in uniform...so the legacy of a president is a credit to the americans and men and women who fought in the campaign.In this instance, the credit belongs only to those serving in uniform. The president and his government did nothing but make their work harder with their endless mistakes and miscalculations, and the American public did nothing but put them in needless harm's way by not realizing until years after the fact that they'd left on their 9/11 blinders for way too long.
Quote from: SWatson on November 01, 2005, 01:43:42 AMQuote from: bluewarrior on November 01, 2005, 12:10:28 AMit is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?speculative. but then of course you have access to all sorts of information to which we mere mortals are not privy and as for the credit, it goes to our men and women in uniform. no one else. there you go again compartmentalizing...common information? common sense...intuitive thinking...you can't do that??? ...um...the credit lies in americans AND men and women in uniform...so the legacy of a president is a credit to the americans and men and women who fought in the campaign.
bush not much of fighter, as history shows.
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