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Author Topic: Hillary Clinton Regret her war vote???...  (Read 6877 times)

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2005, 12:10:28 AM »
PS Bill was a great president,

lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,
first consecutive balanced budgets in forever
lowest welfare rolls in thirty years
Advanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)
Improved trade throughout Asia
Greatest Econ. growth in ever
Huge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 years
Reduced the size of the government

i'm bored at work, so i'm going to argue with you on some of these points.  first of all, welfare, balanced budgets, and reduced size of governments probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the great (numerically, not qualitatively) republican revolution of '94.  similarly, low unemployment (though not necessarily for minorities) and economic growth had a lot to do with some of the painful restructing of the government back during republican regimes.  improved trade throughout asia probably would have happened regardless due to the chinese opening up their economy (and incidentally their loans are now financing iraq and a bunch of other things).  as for improving workers rights, yeah maybe he did improve their rights but 1. i don't really care that much about this particular issue, sorry 2. we also have to look at how this affects american workers in the long run (i.e. makes US a worse place to do business leading to outsourcing?  debatable).  as for the environment, yes he did good by protecting lands but i wish he'd done more, especially to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.  i hate all the !#$&%^%#$&$^%$%$^$&*%^%#$%^$&%^^#%$#*%^&$%^^#$%^^&%%^#$%#*&%^%^#$%^^&(%^#$#$%#$^&*%&(%^%#$@%^%&$&^%&( SUV's and pickup trucks that are out there for no good reason (people who have a GOOD reason, please ignore).  but okay, i'll still give him that one.

more to the point, i think presidents are remembered by what they achieve in the long run.  truman was wildly unpopular at the end of his presidency but is widely recognized as a great president because of what he accomplished in terms of building the post WWII structure.  clinton should be thought of in terms of what he leaves behind.  i think that given what he had to work with and what he accomplished, i'll bet that history rates him as...  average.

yes...and what of the bush jr. legacy...do tell...



i am not at this time free to comment on w.

it is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?

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  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
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SCgrad

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2005, 04:34:16 AM »
PS Bill was a great president,

lowest unemp. in thirty years, including blacks and hispanic rates,
first consecutive balanced budgets in forever
lowest welfare rolls in thirty years
Advanced workers rights across the board (Family Leave Act, etc.)
Improved trade throughout Asia
Greatest Econ. growth in ever
Huge for the environment, most protected land in over 50 years
Reduced the size of the government

i'm bored at work, so i'm going to argue with you on some of these points.  first of all, welfare, balanced budgets, and reduced size of governments probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the great (numerically, not qualitatively) republican revolution of '94.  similarly, low unemployment (though not necessarily for minorities) and economic growth had a lot to do with some of the painful restructing of the government back during republican regimes.  improved trade throughout asia probably would have happened regardless due to the chinese opening up their economy (and incidentally their loans are now financing iraq and a bunch of other things).  as for improving workers rights, yeah maybe he did improve their rights but 1. i don't really care that much about this particular issue, sorry 2. we also have to look at how this affects american workers in the long run (i.e. makes US a worse place to do business leading to outsourcing?  debatable).  as for the environment, yes he did good by protecting lands but i wish he'd done more, especially to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.  i hate all the !#$&%^%#$&$^%$%$^$&*%^%#$%^$&%^^#%$#*%^&$%^^#$%^^&%%^#$%#*&%^%^#$%^^&(%^#$#$%#$^&*%&(%^%#$@%^%&$&^%&( SUV's and pickup trucks that are out there for no good reason (people who have a GOOD reason, please ignore).  but okay, i'll still give him that one.

more to the point, i think presidents are remembered by what they achieve in the long run.  truman was wildly unpopular at the end of his presidency but is widely recognized as a great president because of what he accomplished in terms of building the post WWII structure.  clinton should be thought of in terms of what he leaves behind.  i think that given what he had to work with and what he accomplished, i'll bet that history rates him as...  average.

In many ways I agree with you, and it is hard to judge politics, especially since I didn't give a *&^% when this was actually happening.  But I will pose at least a mini rebuttal, just for fun.

 Clinton succeeded in spite of the Republican congress and its never-ending strategy, the filibuster (pre Rep congress).   Funny that Republicans now deprave their once favorite weapon.  Republicans became more and more wary of working with Clinton because when they did compromise, they made things so much better and made Clinton look so good.  Politically, Republicans were very savvy (mostly Newt Gingrich, who made the new Republican Party).  They tried everything to discredit him, they hated the fact that he was a Southerner and didnít submit to the far right ideology.  They went from shutting down the government to running illegal investigations in attempts to keep Clinton from doing things to help America.  Even with this, he still managed to do several good things.  I agree with you that presidents are judged in the long run.

 I donít know how historians will view him, and your guess of ďaverageĒ is just that, a guess.  The only thing I can say is that in the here and now he seems to have made the country a better place, something I donít know if Olí Dubya will be able to boast.

If I were guessing, I would say that Clinton will be looked at as a president who was one of the hardest working (maybe stretching himself to thin, especially in foreign affairs, Middle East, Balkans, N. Korea, etc.) and one who actually did things to help average Americans in ways they could tangibly see (The BJ fiasco will be prominent too, but will lose importance over time).  Above Average, not Great.

Again guessing, Bush will be remembered by the outcome in the Middle East.  If it goes well (i.e. Is beneficial to America), he will be a hero.  If it doesnít, what could he possibly fall back on, keeping ďGodĒ in the pledge of allegiance?  Above Average or Below Average, no middle ground.

Julie Fern

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2005, 05:27:07 AM »
under investigation, eh?  what putz.

SCgrad

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2005, 06:05:09 AM »
under investigation, eh?  what putz.

He is probably military.  Just in case you were actually wondering and not just trying to be an antagonist.  But I know Julie, she never antagonist.

SCgrad

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2005, 06:24:48 AM »
I thought jules was questioning why you couldn't comment about W (saying that you couldn't comment because you were under investigation).  I figured that the reason was that you were in the military.  If she was pondering something else, I don't know what it was.  I have nothing but respect for the military.

I was just trying to clear confusion.

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2005, 06:39:14 AM »
I, for one, do not believe Hillary's run towards the center. If you notice, when Bill was president, he was the centrist and Hillary was the leftie. Now it's reversed. This makes me wary of her. Plus, with the contentiousness of the presidency right now, I'm not sure that it's going to be a good idea to put Hillary up for 2008. Maybe 2012 or 2016. If you're trying to catch people leaving the Republican party, then Hillary isn't necessarily a good way to do it. Too many people still have bad memories of her. I don't care for her, myself. (I don't like W either, but equally, I don't consider him the evil antichrist that some people do.)

Frankly, I'm convinced that I'm going to have nobody to vote for again in 2008, because the parties are just stupid. My libertarian-leaning self can't stand the democrats generally, and is abandoned by the fiscal conservatives of the republicans...
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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2005, 01:16:42 PM »

it is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?



speculative.  but then of course you have access to all sorts of information to which we mere mortals are not privy  :D  :D  :D

and as for the credit, it goes to our men and women in uniform.  no one else.   >:(



there you go again compartmentalizing...common information? common sense...intuitive thinking...you can't do that??? :'( :'(

...um...the credit lies in americans AND men and women in uniform...so the legacy of a president is a credit to the americans and men and women who fought in the campaign.

If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
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  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2005, 02:36:43 PM »

it is...of course...speculative...but there is no dictator between the tigris and euphrates rivers...only tribes and people...crawling to have a say in their matters...who gonna get that kind of credit?



speculative.  but then of course you have access to all sorts of information to which we mere mortals are not privy  :D  :D  :D

and as for the credit, it goes to our men and women in uniform.  no one else.   >:(



there you go again compartmentalizing...common information? common sense...intuitive thinking...you can't do that??? :'( :'(

...um...the credit lies in americans AND men and women in uniform...so the legacy of a president is a credit to the americans and men and women who fought in the campaign.



In this instance, the credit belongs only to those serving in uniform.  The president and his government did nothing but make their work harder with their endless mistakes and miscalculations, and the American public did nothing but put them in needless harm's way by not realizing until years after the fact that they'd left on their 9/11 blinders for way too long. 

the legacy will belong to the president...the credit rests with the work.
aye think the blinders from 1968 have been lifted since the usa will not have to deal with the ba'th regime and its leader in iraq any longer.

If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare

Julie Fern

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2005, 04:43:20 PM »
bush not much of fighter, as history shows.

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Re: Hillary Clinton Slipping Already...
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2005, 05:24:00 PM »
bush not much of fighter, as history shows.

why would he have to be considered a fighter...what are you a warmonger?

some warrior names alone put fear into the heart of the "global guerrilla."

If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare