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Author Topic: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?  (Read 15693 times)

stateofbeasley

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I was wondering if anyone had ever taken the USNWR data, removed the reputation scores, and then recalculated the rankings.

What schools would rise? What schools coast on their reputations and would plummet like a rock without them?

Lindbergh

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2005, 05:31:44 PM »
What would happen is that the rankings would mean even less then they do now, as reputation is the most important factor in placement, and most of the other categories (placement percentage, etc.) are heavily gamed by the schools themselves.

It would ultimtely inflate the importance of LSAT/GPA even further, which would presumably bother many on this board. 

For what it's worth, though, Stanford would probably drop below NYU.



I was wondering if anyone had ever taken the USNWR data, removed the reputation scores, and then recalculated the rankings.

What schools would rise? What schools coast on their reputations and would plummet like a rock without them?

sck

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2005, 10:13:40 AM »
Personally, I'd like to see USNWR do some regional rankings. I'm more curious about how schools place in the region I want to work than I am in how they rank overall nationally. I'm willing to move where I'm going to school only if I think I'd like to stay in the area.
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PresClay_00

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2005, 10:44:19 AM »
same here, except the presumption would probably be that the order in which they fall nationally is the order in which they would fall regionally, so just pick the schools that would be acceptable and rank them accordingly

stateofbeasley

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2005, 08:30:06 PM »
But the "reputation" scores come from a very limited number of people: some judges, a couple biglaw hiring partners, and some deans of law schools who might not know much about other law schools. This doesn't say much about a school's reputation outside of those limited groups.

I don't see why people consider LSAT and GPA to be bad factors. I think that the LSAT is a pretty pointless test, but it is *some* indication of how well people do on canned, standardized exams. It might have some probative value on how likely a person is to pass a bar exam. GPA is pretty manipulable, but higher GPA *generally* means harder worker.

Maybe a better way to 'rank' schools is to measure the quality of students it takes (GPA/LSAT) and measure the quality of its output (Bar Pass rates, placement rate, salary). I think most of this data is available through the ABA. I think (and hope) that law schools would not lie to the ABA.

If I came up with my own ranking system to compete with USNWR and Cooley, would you buy a copy? ;D I promise that square footage of the law library and size of student body will NOT be factors in my calculations ;D


What would happen is that the rankings would mean even less then they do now, as reputation is the most important factor in placement, and most of the other categories (placement percentage, etc.) are heaviy gamed by the schools themselves.

It would ultimtely inflate the importance of LSAT/GPA even further, which would presumably bother many on this board. 

For what it's worth, though, Stanford would probably drop below NYU.

Lucky77

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2005, 10:32:34 PM »
I disagree with you entirely about reputation not being important. I think, next to starting salary, it is the MOST important thing I am looking for in a law school. Even if it only from a "select" number of people - and generally, schools who rank highly among this select group are seen just as high amongst outsiders and law firms.

The only factor I'd like to see added to the rankings is the average starting salary.

Lindbergh

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2005, 01:26:17 AM »
But the "reputation" scores come from a very limited number of people: some judges, a couple biglaw hiring partners, and some deans of law schools who might not know much about other law schools.


USNews sends out hundreds of surveys, and hits every law school in the country.  Surveys are mailed to attorneys in every major market.  It would be nice if it were even more comprehensive and thorough, but but it's the most comprehensive and thorough measure of law school reputation we have.  It also tends to be remarkably consistent over time (more so than overall rankings).


This doesn't say much about a school's reputation outside of those limited groups.

Outside of lawyers, judges, and academics, whose opinion are you really concerned with?


I don't see why people consider LSAT and GPA to be bad factors. I think that the LSAT is a pretty pointless test, but it is *some* indication of how well people do on canned, standardized exams. It might have some probative value on how likely a person is to pass a bar exam. GPA is pretty manipulable, but higher GPA *generally* means harder worker.


I don't think LSAT and GPA are bad factors for measuring the quality of a student body.  However, they are limited in terms of how well they measure the quality and reputation of a school.  For example, BYU and UTexas have nearly identical student numbers, but there's little question that UTexas has a stronger faculty, better reputation, and better placement, especially in terms of elite clerkships, academic placement, and major national firms. 



Maybe a better way to 'rank' schools is to measure the quality of students it takes (GPA/LSAT) and measure the quality of its output (Bar Pass rates, placement rate, salary). I think most of this data is available through the ABA. I think (and hope) that law schools would not lie to the ABA.


These factors are already, of course, included in USNews.  Bar pass rates are interesting, but can vary depending on the jurisdiction.  Salary can vary widely depending on where the school is located, and the cost of living in that region.  (NYC has both higher salaries and a higher COL than most other cities.)  Placement rate can be manipulated to an enormous degree by law schools in different ways, by hiring students as research assistants, etc.  (Even LSAT/GPA can be manipulated by schools.)

 



What would happen is that the rankings would mean even less then they do now, as reputation is the most important factor in placement, and most of the other categories (placement percentage, etc.) are heaviy gamed by the schools themselves.

It would ultimtely inflate the importance of LSAT/GPA even further, which would presumably bother many on this board. 

For what it's worth, though, Stanford would probably drop below NYU.
[/quote]

Typhoon Longwang

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2005, 03:20:42 PM »
Well, you're taking out 40% of the ranking, so quite a bit.  Here's a close guess at what it might look like:

1   Yale Law School
2   Harvard Law School
3   Stanford University Law School
4   Boston University School of Law
5   New York University School of Law
6   Washington and Lee University School of Law
7   University of Minnesota Law School
8   University of Chicago Law School
9   Columbia University School of Law
10   Northwestern University School of Law
11   University of Washington School of Law
12   University of Pennsylvania Law School
13   University of Virginia School of Law
14   Vanderbilt University Law School
15   William & Mary Law School
16   University of California, Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall)
17   Cornell Law School
18   University of Iowa College of Law
19   Duke University School of Law
20   Washington University School of Law
21   Baylor University School of Law
22   University of Kentucky College of Law
23   Notre Dame Law School
24   Brigham Young University—J. Reuben Clark Law School
25   Georgetown University Law Center
26   Boston College Law School
27   University of Cincinnati College of Law
28   University of Southern California Law School
29   University of Tennessee College of Law
30   University of Michigan Law School
31   The University of Texas School of Law
32   The University of Alabama School of Law
33   The University of Toledo College of Law
34   University of Wisconsin Law School
35   University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) School of Law
36   Fordham University School of Law
37   Saint Louis University School of Law
38   George Washington University Law School
39   University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law
40   Emory University School of Law
41   University of Georgia School of Law
42   SMU Dedman School of Law
43   University of Hawai'i at Manoa—William S. Richardson School of Law
44   University of Nebraska College of Law
45   Wake Forest University School of Law
46   University of North Carolina School of Law
47   Temple University—James E. Beasley School of Law
48   University of Florida, Fredric G. Levin College of Law
49   The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law
50   St. John's University School of Law
51   University of San Diego School of Law
52   University of Utah S.J. Quinney College of Law
53   Tulane University Law School
54   The University of Memphis—Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law
55   University of Maryland School of Law
56   University of Illinois College of Law
57   Louis D. Brandeis School of Law at the University of Louisville
58   George Mason University School of Law
59   University of Colorado School of Law
60   University of Pittsburgh School of Law
61   The University of Mississippi School of Law
62   Case Western Reserve University School of Law
63   Chicago-Kent College of Law, Illinois Institute of Technology
64   Indiana University School of Law—Bloomington
65   Arizona State University College of Law
66   Loyola Law School, Loyola Marymount University
67   University of Arkansas School of Law—Fayetteville
68   University of Connecticut School of Law
69   University of New Mexico School of Law
70   Mercer University—Walter F. George School of Law
71   University of Missouri—Columbia School of Law
72   Pepperdine University School of Law
73   University at Buffalo Law School, The State University of New York
74   Creighton University School of Law
75   Chapman University School of Law
76   The Florida State University College of Law
77   University of California, Hastings College of the Law
78   Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University
79   Brooklyn Law School
80   American University, Washington College of Law
81   Texas Tech University School of Law
82   University of South Carolina School of Law
83   Loyola University Chicago School of Law
84   University of Akron School of Law
85   University of Oklahoma College of Law
86   Ohio Northern University—Claude W. Pettit College of Law
87   University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law
88   University of Nevada Las Vegas, William S. Boyd School of Law
89   Northern Kentucky University—Salmon P. Chase College of Law
90   Duquesne University School of Law
91   Lewis & Clark Law School
92   University of San Francisco School of Law
93   Villanova University School of Law
94   University of California, Davis School of Law (King Hall)
95   Seattle University School of Law
96   University of Arkansas Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law
97   Penn State University, The Dickinson School of Law
98   University of Idaho College of Law
99   University of Richmond School of Law
100   University of Missouri—Kansas City School of Law
101   Loyola University New Orleans School of Law
102   Texas Southern University—Thurgood Marshall School of Law
103   Howard University School of Law
104   University of Houston Law Center
105   University of North Dakota School of Law
106   University of Denver Sturm College of Law
107   Willamette University College of Law
108   Northeastern University School of Law
109   Hamline University School of Law
110   Albany Law School of Union University
111   Northern Illinois University College of Law
112   Michigan State University College of Law
113   Washburn University School of Law
114   Stetson University College of Law
115   Hofstra University School of Law
116   University of Miami School of Law
117   Seton Hall University School of Law
118   Rutgers—The State University, School of Law—Camden
119   Cleveland State University—Cleveland-Marshall College of Law
120   Gonzaga University School of Law
121   Southern Illinois University School of Law
122   Louisiana State University, Paul M. Hebert Law Center
123   West Virginia University College of Law
124   University of Kansas School of Law
125   Indiana University School of Law—Indianapolis
126   University of Oregon School of Law
127   Georgia State University College of Law
128   Samford University, Cumberland School of Law
129   Drake University Law School
130   Rutgers University School of Law—Newark
131   University of Wyoming College of Law
132   Marquette University Law School
133   Mississippi College School of Law
134   Campbell University, Norman Adrian Wiggins School of Law
135   Pace University School of Law
136   Vermont Law School
137   Capital University Law School
138   Wayne State University Law School
139   Syracuse University College of Law
140   The Catholic University of America, Columbus School of Law
141   University of Maine School of Law
142   University of Montana School of Law
143   Southwestern University School of Law
144   Valparaiso University School of Law
145   Ave Maria School of Law
146   DePaul University College of Law
147   Quinnipiac University School of Law
148   Suffolk University Law School
149   Franklin Pierce Law Center
150   University of South Dakota School of Law
151   California Western School of Law
152   Santa Clara University School of Law
153   Southern University Law Center
154   North Carolina Central University School of Law
155   New York Law School
156   Regent University School of Law
157   Whittier Law School
158   Western New England College School of Law
159   University of Dayton School of Law
160   The John Marshall Law School
161   Florida Coastal School of Law
162   William Mitchell College of Law
163   University of Tulsa College of Law
164   South Texas College of Law
165   Widener University School of Law 1
166   University of Detroit Mercy School of Law
167   New England School of Law
168   Texas Wesleyan University School of Law
169   University of St. Thomas School of Law — Minneapolis
170   University of Baltimore School of Law
171   Oklahoma City University School of Law
172   City University of New York School of Law at Queens College
173   Thomas Jefferson School of Law
174   University of The District of Columbia—The David A. Clarke School of Law
175   Roger Williams University, Ralph R. Papitto School of Law
176   St. Thomas University School of Law
177   Nova Southeastern University—Shepard Broad Law Center
178   St. Mary's University School of Law
179   Touro College—Jacob D. Fuchsberg Law Center
180   Thomas M. Cooley Law School
181   University of Puerto Rico School of Law
182   Inter American University School of Law
183   Florida International University, College of Law
184   Widener University School of Law 2
185   Barry University Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law
186   Golden Gate University School of Law
187   Appalachian School of Law
188   Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto Rico, School of Law
189   Florida A&M University, College of Law

stateofbeasley

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Re: What happens to the USNWR ranks if reputation scores are removed?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2005, 09:23:03 PM »
How did you calculate that list?

Typhoon Longwang

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