Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
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Poll

Why are the Newbies scared to speak up?

They prefer to Lurk.
 16 (34.8%)
They're not, they're just on another website.
 4 (8.7%)
The Board is too cliquish.
 10 (21.7%)
There's nothing interesting to talk about.
 2 (4.3%)
There's nobody interesting to talk to.
 2 (4.3%)
Not enough Board moderation.
 4 (8.7%)
Newbies?  What Newbies?
 8 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 46

Author Topic: Black Law Student Discussion Board  (Read 1639932 times)

blk_reign

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50590 on: September 13, 2007, 01:08:45 PM »
I don't think that any grading is as rigorous as law school.. but I do feel that law students have access to all of the resources they need.. I just know that if you find yourself thinking uhoh I'm confused about what strict scrutiny is or what makes an action a narrowly tailored action.. (and you simply aren't getting it on your own).. then you need to get help.. and if no one's helping you at all (which I truly don't believe but I've been wrong before) then head to the Dean's office and the office of student affairs and file a complaint..

don't wait til you get the grade to admit that there were some problems somewhere along the way..

ETA: as I said earlier.. all of this could be avoided if the schools in question were closed and folks stopped enrolling.. we need to take a responsibility and do the absolute best we can.. if you're going to a place that's @ the bottom then you already know that your work is cut out for you... and if you think otherwise then you're a bit foolish..

and that's my point.. we've all been to school before.. we've all dealt with some sort of curve @ some point in our lives.. be it high school.. a class in undergrad..whatever..EVERYONE that enters law school should know that they are competing for a grade..so I think that at the very least the administration thinks the student should exhibit basic common sense when it comes to studying and how they plan on staying in school.. once you enter those doors it's str8 survival of the fittest..

Most people who go to law school have not been graded on curves with the same rigidity and consequences as law school curves.  Also, this is all beside the point that schools need to disclose their assessments of particular students' risks. 

We're not accepting this CHANGE UP in the rules. Period. American presidents have been in the bed with organized crime, corporate pilferers, and the like for years. And all u want to put on this man is that his pastor said "Gotdamn America?" Hell, America.U got off pretty damn well, if you ask me...

Miss P

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50591 on: September 13, 2007, 01:20:24 PM »
Again, I think that your cheapest cost avoider argument is compelling, but at the same time, prospective students are always given reasonable access to current students to express concerns and get questions answered. They are given access to administrators and such who answer questions. Surely an administration doesn't have the resources to outline EVERY SINGLE standard to every single student. There is usually a book of guidelines that you have to read, students you can talk to, etc. The information is there.

The core question is whether or not the disclosure about this forced curve or whatever is something so important that it ought to be underscored to each and every admit.

I disagree with this first bit.  Current students and even individual administrators are not in a position to know the things the school knows about which students are failing, how, and why.  I know there are a few people from my section who aren't around this year, but I don't know why they're gone (except the one who transferred to Columbia, who made it well known :D), what kind of notice they received if they were dismissed, what their applications looked like and how they stacked up against the students who advanced, etc.  This is institutional, not anecdotal, knowledge.

And of course the curve and retention policies are so important as to mandate full disclosure to admitted students.  But if these institutions really intend to prepare people to practice law, their obligation runs further than that: schools should affirmatively disclose risks to individual students whom they have reason to believe face a serious risk of failure.  Moreover, they ought to provide extra support to these students if they do choose to matricuate, and intervene early after the release of first-semester grades for all at-risk students.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50592 on: September 13, 2007, 01:27:23 PM »
Again, I think that your cheapest cost avoider argument is compelling, but at the same time, prospective students are always given reasonable access to current students to express concerns and get questions answered. They are given access to administrators and such who answer questions. Surely an administration doesn't have the resources to outline EVERY SINGLE standard to every single student. There is usually a book of guidelines that you have to read, students you can talk to, etc. The information is there.

The core question is whether or not the disclosure about this forced curve or whatever is something so important that it ought to be underscored to each and every admit.

I disagree with this first bit.  Current students and even individual administrators are not in a position to know the things the school knows about which students are failing, how, and why.  I know there are a few people from my section who aren't around this year, but I don't know why they're gone (except the one who transferred to Columbia, who made it well known :D), what kind of notice they received if they were dismissed, what their applications looked like and how they stacked up against the students who advanced, etc.  This is institutional, not anecdotal, knowledge.

And of course the curve and retention policies are so important as to mandate full disclosure to admitted students.  But if these institutions really intend to prepare people to practice law, their obligation runs further than that: schools should affirmatively disclose risks to individual students whom they have reason to believe face a serious risk of failure.  Moreover, they ought to provide extra support to these students if they do choose to matricuate, and intervene early after the release of first-semester grades for all at-risk students.

Hopefully they're all working for Hillary.  ;)

I do take a bit of an issue with this and will reply more substantively later.  Annabel is hungry.
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Miss P

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50593 on: September 13, 2007, 01:28:25 PM »
I don't think that any grading is as rigorous as law school.. but I do feel that law students have access to all of the resources they need.. I just know that if you find yourself thinking uhoh I'm confused about what strict scrutiny is or what makes an action a narrowly tailored action.. (and you simply aren't getting it on your own).. then you need to get help.. and if no one's helping you at all (which I truly don't believe but I've been wrong before) then head to the Dean's office and the office of student affairs and file a complaint..

You're an esquire, so I know you've run the gantlet.  Most students have no idea how they're doing in school (and believe they understand the material) until they receive their first-semester grades, often in the beginning of the second semester.  This may be a larger problem with law school grading and assessment in general, but it nonetheless makes it difficult to argue that first-semester students can gauge their progress in the way you suggest.  Yet these grades can have a tremendous impact on students' chances.  If schools did a better job of disclosing individual risk, these students would have a much higher burden to affirmatively seek the kind of assistance you describe.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50594 on: September 13, 2007, 01:51:53 PM »



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

Well said, as usual.

If you are applying to law school and you get IN over the 1000's of other applicants who wanted your seat...why on earth would you NOT do everything in your power to succeed? 

This is not the time for the foolishness.
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intent06

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50595 on: September 13, 2007, 01:57:22 PM »



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

Well said, as usual.

If you are applying to law school and you get IN over the 1000's of other applicants who wanted your seat...why on earth would you NOT do everything in your power to succeed? 

This is not the time for the foolishness.

Speak on it brother!!! Play time ended once you sat in orientation.  This is not a game and no matter what school you go to, you have to play by the "local rules" of the court.  So I would ask anyone who got curved out to reflect back on their previous year and examine EVERYTHING from the way you studied, your visits to profs, tutorials, MISUSE of supplements, etc.
Damn...it's the third year already!!

Miss P

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50596 on: September 13, 2007, 02:00:34 PM »
i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate.

Well said, as usual.

If you are applying to law school and you get IN over the 1000's of other applicants who wanted your seat...why on earth would you NOT do everything in your power to succeed? 

This is not the time for the foolishness.

I [believe] in personal responsibility as much as the next guy, but I don't think anyone has established that all or even the majority of the people who flunked out weren't doing everything in their power to succeed.  They were graded on a curve so that even having learned the material well enough to pass the bar or help clients may not have been enough to earn good grades.  There is no reason to fail law students on a comparative basis (while Galt has persuasively argued that this may be reasonable in other contexts). And, let's be honest, law school, and particularly the high-stakes testing, is a difficult adjustment for a lot of students.  Weighing first-semester grades so heavily in retention decisions seems unfair.

EDITed as indicated.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

cui bono?

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50597 on: September 13, 2007, 02:02:04 PM »
I agree in personal responsibility as much as the next guy, but I don't think anyone has established that all or even the majority of the people who flunked out weren't doing everything in their power to succeed.  They were graded on a curve so that even having learned the material well enough to pass the bar or help clients may not have been enough to earn good grades.  There is no reason to fail law students on a comparative basis (while Galt has persuasively argued that this may be reasonable in other contexts). And, let's be honest, law school, and particularly the high-stakes testing, is a difficult adjustment for a lot of students.  Weighing first-semester grades so heavily in retention decisions seems unfair.

TITCR
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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50598 on: September 13, 2007, 02:13:42 PM »
I simply maintain that any school with a policy that, not allows, but essentially requires them to flunk people out is clearly admitting people they know they will fail, and that it actually doesn't really matter that much if they know which people those are at the outset.  The policy flaw, to my mind, isn't the curve or even the forced curve, it's the curve that requires someone to fail.  That seems clearly in violation of not only ethics, but that ABA standard we keep mentioning.

No, it would only be a violation if they knew at the time of admitting that person, that that particular person would fail.  At least that is how I read the standard. Ethically, yes, I agree with you...terrible policy.

If they knew of should have known, my brother.  You don't get to skate out of tortious liability simply because you were ignorant about what was going on around you.
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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50599 on: September 13, 2007, 02:39:58 PM »
i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate.

Well said, as usual.

If you are applying to law school and you get IN over the 1000's of other applicants who wanted your seat...why on earth would you NOT do everything in your power to succeed? 

This is not the time for the foolishness.

I [believe] in personal responsibility as much as the next guy, but I don't think anyone has established that all or even the majority of the people who flunked out weren't doing everything in their power to succeed.  They were graded on a curve so that even having learned the material well enough to pass the bar or help clients may not have been enough to earn good grades.  There is no reason to fail law students on a comparative basis (while Galt has persuasively argued that this may be reasonable in other contexts). And, let's be honest, law school, and particularly the high-stakes testing, is a difficult adjustment for a lot of students.  Weighing first-semester grades so heavily in retention decisions seems unfair.

EDITed as indicated.


it may have not been established but i would be willing to bet that if you tried to establish it, it wouldn't be difficult. every one on this board is bright (as measured by raw intelligence) law school is a lot of work but it's not anything that somebody of above average intelligence should not be able to grasp. there are a lot of lawyers out there and most of them are not thurgood marshall but they graduated. i guess i agree that some law schools should be closed. if your lsat score indicates that you can not succeed at what is considered a "respectable" law school then you should not go. if you go to a "bad" law school and can not cut it then to me that says find another career path. i'm sorry but there are too many bad lawyers out there for law schools to be bending over backward so that you can graduate. i agree with the other posters the resources are there the assistance is there. i understand that there is a curve but the curve is there for a reason, to weed out those who will be bad lawyers and i think it works. law school is distinct from UG in that you are not "getting an education" so that you can go on to do other things. you are training for a profession in which you will be paid a lot of money for your "expertise" by people who expect you to know what you're doing.
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