Law School Discussion

Poll

Why are the Newbies scared to speak up?

They prefer to Lurk.
18 (35.3%)
They're not, they're just on another website.
4 (7.8%)
The Board is too cliquish.
10 (19.6%)
There's nothing interesting to talk about.
3 (5.9%)
There's nobody interesting to talk to.
2 (3.9%)
Not enough Board moderation.
4 (7.8%)
Newbies?  What Newbies?
10 (19.6%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Black Law Student Discussion Board

Gengiswump

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50580 on: September 13, 2007, 10:50:58 AM »

I agree with Gengis' reading of the standard, but I also believe, given the rich data schools have about applicants, they can likely predict with some reasonable accuracy which students will succeed.  That is, in fact, what they are supposed to be paying their admissions committees to do.  I can imagine a school effectively rebutting this presumption, but STU certainly hasn't.


Fair enough.

cui bono?

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50581 on: September 13, 2007, 10:53:09 AM »
I simply maintain that any school with a policy that, not allows, but essentially requires them to flunk people out is clearly admitting people they know they will fail, and that it actually doesn't really matter that much if they know which people those are at the outset.  The policy flaw, to my mind, isn't the curve or even the forced curve, it's the curve that requires someone to fail.  That seems clearly in violation of not only ethics, but that ABA standard we keep mentioning.

No, it would only be a violation if they knew at the time of admitting that person, that that particular person would fail.  At least that is how I read the standard. Ethically, yes, I agree with you...terrible policy.

I think you could read it where knowledge of the specific student isn't required, but haven't read it since 2AM, so who knows. The law school is, clearly, admitting students it knows will fail, because they must fail, because that law school's policy dictates such.  Perhaps it's just my sense of rightness talking, but I think a generous reading might be in order. :) 

I'm not opposed to failing people, I am however, opposed to failing people on a comparative standard, regardless of how they may have actually done, or what grasp of law they may actually have.

I agree with Gengis' reading of the standard, but I also believe, given the rich data schools have about applicants, they can likely predict with some reasonable accuracy which students will succeed.  That is, in fact, what they are supposed to be paying their admissions committees to do.  I can imagine a school effectively rebutting this presumption, but STU certainly hasn't.

I am also opposed to failing people based on a curve.  I think it is senseless.  If someone can't keep up with the material, that's one thing.  If she just hasn't kept up as well as others, that's quite another.

ETA: I agree with Galt's post above as well.

Agreed w/ Miss P, Gengis, and Galt

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50582 on: September 13, 2007, 10:53:53 AM »
I'm not sure whether that matters.  I think a better question would be if the student knew the application of that standard.  Let's use Thomas Bentey in his case against STU.  Saying you have to have a 2.5 to someone is different than outlying the application of that standard in the literature provided to the student prior to and after matriculation.

ok in this hypothetical situation did the student know what the curve was?

is it only the law school that is to blame?  Let me stop before I go off on some contributory negligence sh*t...lol

LOL.  I know where u're coming from and that's actually something I thought of.  But I'm moreso in the area of contracts not torts.  Esp. since I think a tortious action would require some sort of intent somewhere up in there.  ???  I just don't buy into the duty to investigate argument.  I think the burden shifts to the school for full disclosure.  The school knows something the students don't know, I'm not sure if that fact makes the relationship "confidential" but there's an issue of reliance there.  The assumption of the risk would therefore be on the school not the student.     



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

what r u talking about "worrying 'bout what everyone else thinks"?   

well ethically, I don't think schools have a duty to present their application materials in a way that would harm their presentation. Perhaps they have a duty to inform students of the curve, statistics of flunking out, etc after they've been admitted, but before the student's deposit is accepted. That way prospective students, instead of prospective applicants, can have the opportunity to explore the range of options that they have at the current time.

Again, I think that your cheapest cost avoider argument is compelling, but at the same time, prospective students are always given reasonable access to current students to express concerns and get questions answered. They are given access to administrators and such who answer questions. Surely an administration doesn't have the resources to outline EVERY SINGLE standard to every single student. There is usually a book of guidelines that you have to read, students you can talk to, etc. The information is there.

The core question is whether or not the disclosure about this forced curve or whatever is something so important that it ought to be underscored to each and every admit.

jarhead

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50583 on: September 13, 2007, 10:55:18 AM »
is it only the law school that is to blame?  Let me stop before I go off on some contributory negligence sh*t...lol

LOL.  I know where u're coming from and that's actually something I thought of.  But I'm moreso in the area of contracts not torts.  Esp. since I think a tortious action would require some sort of intent somewhere up in there.  ???  I just don't buy into the duty to investigate argument.  I think the burden shifts to the school for full disclosure.  The school knows something the students don't know, I'm not sure if that fact makes the relationship "confidential" but there's an issue of reliance there.  The assumption of the risk would therefore be on the school not the student.     



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

what r u talking about "worrying 'bout what everyone else thinks"?   


general observation...if you're discussing what you do (outside of mentoring or whatever) and not in the library doing what you need to do you're wasting energy. all that "well i do this" or "i dont do this" its all for everybody else. i don't care i'm in the library right now nobody needs to know. i'm just here

intent06

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50584 on: September 13, 2007, 10:56:09 AM »
Galt...your issue statements are tight!!!  My con law professor would love you lol

cui bono?

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50585 on: September 13, 2007, 10:57:50 AM »
is it only the law school that is to blame?  Let me stop before I go off on some contributory negligence sh*t...lol

LOL.  I know where u're coming from and that's actually something I thought of.  But I'm moreso in the area of contracts not torts.  Esp. since I think a tortious action would require some sort of intent somewhere up in there.  ???  I just don't buy into the duty to investigate argument.  I think the burden shifts to the school for full disclosure.  The school knows something the students don't know, I'm not sure if that fact makes the relationship "confidential" but there's an issue of reliance there.  The assumption of the risk would therefore be on the school not the student.     



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

what r u talking about "worrying 'bout what everyone else thinks"?   


general observation...if you're discussing what you do (outside of mentoring or whatever) and not in the library doing what you need to do you're wasting energy. all that "well i do this" or "i dont do this" its all for everybody else. i don't care i'm in the library right now nobody needs to know. i'm just here

ahhh, gothcha.

Miss P

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50586 on: September 13, 2007, 11:00:50 AM »
and that's my point.. we've all been to school before.. we've all dealt with some sort of curve @ some point in our lives.. be it high school.. a class in undergrad..whatever..EVERYONE that enters law school should know that they are competing for a grade..so I think that at the very least the administration thinks the student should exhibit basic common sense when it comes to studying and how they plan on staying in school.. once you enter those doors it's str8 survival of the fittest..

Most people who go to law school have not been graded on curves with the same rigidity and consequences as law school curves.  Also, this is all beside the point that schools need to disclose their assessments of particular students' risks.  

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50587 on: September 13, 2007, 11:01:35 AM »
Galt...your issue statements are tight!!!  My con law professor would love you lol

lol, thanks bro.

jarhead

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Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50588 on: September 13, 2007, 11:02:02 AM »
is it only the law school that is to blame?  Let me stop before I go off on some contributory negligence sh*t...lol

LOL.  I know where u're coming from and that's actually something I thought of.  But I'm moreso in the area of contracts not torts.  Esp. since I think a tortious action would require some sort of intent somewhere up in there.  ???  I just don't buy into the duty to investigate argument.  I think the burden shifts to the school for full disclosure.  The school knows something the students don't know, I'm not sure if that fact makes the relationship "confidential" but there's an issue of reliance there.  The assumption of the risk would therefore be on the school not the student.     



i have to agree with this. i guess i'm coming from a different mind set i feel that by the time you get to law school you're an adult. you're paying money you want to graduate do what is necessary if that means meeting with profs briefing cases and do remedial stuff that others call "a waste of time" do it. i mean i guess i'm saying grow up. i don't see why any serious student who was good enough to get into law school whatever tier can't graduate. if you need to adjust from UG adjust i mean wtf is so damn difficult about that? worrying about what everybody else is doing, what everybody else thinks, that somebody is gonna think your dumb is just juvenile and childish. what the next man eats doesn't make you ish....your 20 something years old time to put down childish things.

what r u talking about "worrying 'bout what everyone else thinks"?   


general observation...if you're discussing what you do (outside of mentoring or whatever) and not in the library doing what you need to do you're wasting energy. all that "well i do this" or "i dont do this" its all for everybody else. i don't care i'm in the library right now nobody needs to know. i'm just here

ahhh, gothcha.


oh i see i quoted the wrong post. i meant to quote ladyKD so i guess what i said didn't make sense in context

Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« Reply #50589 on: September 13, 2007, 11:08:45 AM »
I don't think that any grading is as rigorous as law school.. but I do feel that law students have access to all of the resources they need.. I just know that if you find yourself thinking uhoh I'm confused about what strict scrutiny is or what makes an action a narrowly tailored action.. (and you simply aren't getting it on your own).. then you need to get help.. and if no one's helping you at all (which I truly don't believe but I've been wrong before) then head to the Dean's office and the office of student affairs and file a complaint..

don't wait til you get the grade to admit that there were some problems somewhere along the way..

ETA: as I said earlier.. all of this could be avoided if the schools in question were closed and folks stopped enrolling.. we need to take a responsibility and do the absolute best we can.. if you're going to a place that's @ the bottom then you already know that your work is cut out for you... and if you think otherwise then you're a bit foolish..

and that's my point.. we've all been to school before.. we've all dealt with some sort of curve @ some point in our lives.. be it high school.. a class in undergrad..whatever..EVERYONE that enters law school should know that they are competing for a grade..so I think that at the very least the administration thinks the student should exhibit basic common sense when it comes to studying and how they plan on staying in school.. once you enter those doors it's str8 survival of the fittest..

Most people who go to law school have not been graded on curves with the same rigidity and consequences as law school curves.  Also, this is all beside the point that schools need to disclose their assessments of particular students' risks.