Law School Discussion

Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring

Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 11:51:46 AM »
Congratulations, and good luck. Everyone deserves a second chance. Let us know how it goes if you like.

Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 09:59:20 AM »
That's great and yea I know there are a bunch of people that claim schools have to flunk you out etc, but that is as usual random internet b.s.  Law schools are businesses they want to make money from their students who pay tuition. They are also not a-holes and want their students to succeed. If you did well enough on the LSAT and had a decent UGPA then you have the intelligence to pass the bar and have a successful legal career. That doesn't mean you will, but the potential is there and if you struggle 1L, but realize there are things you can do differently they are happy to readmit you.

It sounds like you learned a lot from the experience and will probably be a better attorney. You got your ass kicked 1L most lawyers don't get that kick in the ass until after the bar exam.

Keep working hard and good things will happen!

loki13

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Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 11:06:13 AM »
"That's great and yea I know there are a bunch of people that claim schools have to flunk you out etc, but that is as usual random internet b.s"

Well.... no. It depends on the school. Roughly speaking, if you're at one of the better schools, they will try to keep you in. They will work with you.

There are two areas of concern-
a. Scholarships: Because many schools give merit scholarships that are tied into GPA, students are at risk of losing these scholarships. But they won't "flunk out," they will just have difficult financial decisions to make.
b. Flunking out: There are certain schools that deliberately accept large numbers of students that will likely have difficulty in law school (low uGPA/ low LSAT). They have no qualms about flunking out a large number of these students (think of your Florida Coastals, your Cooleys). Here's why- USNWR ranks on, among other things, bar passage rates and employment success. These schools have no great desire to have their worst students graduate. For them, the first year is, quite literally, a sorting mechanism, paid for by the student.

Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 11:31:00 AM »
Yes they do.

Even Cooley and Florida Coastal would rather have students pay two years of tuition opposed to fail them out. If a student is clearly and I mean clearly not going to pass the bar at some point they have to fail them out, but flunking out students costs money and the reputation of people flunking out and telling everyone they know how much X school sucks is worse than even a poor ranking.

Cooley and Coastal know they are never going to be elite schools and there is no school that wants to kick any student out, but it of course happens. However, even if someone is academically dismissed and puts work in, shows competence, etc they are likely to let the student back in.

At my school I knew a girl that failed out 1L. She never attended class and when she did facebook the whole time, never did the work etc. She slacked off 1L and to no surprise she was dismissed. However, the school said she could reapply if she passed the baby-bar. She got her sh*t together and passed went on to graduate, passed the Cali bar, etc.

Other students didn't get the wake up call and were not readmitted.

Each student brings a school upwards of $30,000-$40,000 a year. They don't want to lose $60,000-$80,000 of income by dismissing a student that is capable.

As for the scholarships schools do entice students to enroll and make it hard to maintain the conditions. Again, it is  mostly about money above all else as everything in business ends up being.

No school wants a student to fail out. Ideally, a school would love all their students to graduate (while paying full tuition), pass the bar, get a job so the school can hit up the grads for donations later.

 






loki13

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Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2015, 11:59:37 AM »
"Even Cooley and Florida Coastal would rather have students pay two years of tuition opposed to fail them out."

You're completely wrong. How do I know this? Because of, um, facts! Florida Coastal, despite curbing the practice, still has an attrition rate of 31% from 1L to 2L. Think about that. They are not working to keep those students in- that is *part of the business plan.* Quite literally, if that rate suddenly dropped in half, they wouldn't have the facilities and faculty to teach the 2L class.

I know we disagree sometimes CityLaw about opinions, but we shouldn't disagree about facts. Certain schools predicate their business models knowing that they will (and have to!) fail a certain percentage of the 1L class. These are easily ascertainable facts. Just like it's easily ascertainable whether or not a school has offered you a merit-based scholarship that requires you to have a GPA above an artificially-set class curve.

No, an anecdote that, "I knew a student, and it worked out okay," doesn't cut it. I knew a student that screwed up, and took an additional two years to finish- but I went to a school that worked with the student. As I pointed out, there are schools that have different business models.

Like this Coastal's.


Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2015, 12:37:58 PM »
But you have to look at the facts with more depth. Yes 30.5% is the attrition no question, but it does not mean 30.5% failed out. http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/official-guide-2014/aba5320.pdf

The total attrition was 207 students.

83 of the 207 were for academic purposes.

123 was for other and 114 of these other were transfers.

So at the end of the day the academic attrition was a little over 10% not 30%.

The majority of the students that did really well transferred to other schools, which Florida Coastal probably did not like. 114 students transferring means they lost millions of dollars and they would certainly have loved for the 83 that  were dismissed for academic reasons to stay, but they have an obligation to dismiss someone that clearly will not pass the bar. However, if they are dismissed and show that they can learn from their mistakes a second chance is looming as again losing 83 students is millions more dollars lost in tuition.



People just look at attrition and assume it means everyone failed out, but at most T4's with high attrition the majority of it is due to transfers not failing out.



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Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2015, 01:47:17 PM »
You have got to be kidding me.

First, these are best case scenario numbers, as their 1L class size has dropped almost in half (808 to 404 in four years). Meanwhile, their LSATs and uGPAs have cratered. As well as their bar passage rates. And they are still attrit'ing a large percentage of their students.

Also, if your enrollment is ~440, and you "only" attrit 83,  that's about 19% of your class. Not 10%. So one in five students. And that's considered good for them!

I honestly don't know what it will take to get through your head (given their documented bar passage rates, and the numbers)- their business model presupposes they will fail people.

And people like you, that defend this, are part of the problem. I honestly find it very hard to believe, given what we have just gone through, that anyone with two firing neurons, could still defend this.

Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 02:09:34 PM »
I am not even defending it.

Just saying the school does not want to dismiss people. They have lower admission standards, which means statistically there will be more academic dismissal, but no school anywhere wants to lose a paying student.

No law firm wants to lose a paying client, no Bank wants to lose a paying customer, etc.

Schools actively try to recruit students and they want to keep them. Particularly a school like Florida Coastal that is dealing with fringe students in the first place. However, if a 1L cannot get the basics of IRAC on an easy torts exam they got to go, but if everyone at Florida Coastal nailed their exams and it seemed each was fully capable of passing the bar Florida Coastal would love to keep collecting money.

Since you seem so adamant against this may I ask what a school gains by dismissing a student? Why would a school want that to happen?

It happens of course, but a school would rather have paying students unless you can think of a reason they wouldn't. I can't.


Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2015, 05:12:30 PM »
You have got to be kidding me.

First, these are best case scenario numbers, as their 1L class size has dropped almost in half (808 to 404 in four years). Meanwhile, their LSATs and uGPAs have cratered. As well as their bar passage rates. And they are still attrit'ing a large percentage of their students.

Also, if your enrollment is ~440, and you "only" attrit 83,  that's about 19% of your class. Not 10%. So one in five students. And that's considered good for them!

I honestly don't know what it will take to get through your head (given their documented bar passage rates, and the numbers)- their business model presupposes they will fail people.

And people like you, that defend this, are part of the problem. I honestly find it very hard to believe, given what we have just gone through, that anyone with two firing neurons, could still defend this.
Attrition shows that the school either admits people who they shouldn't (scam)
or that they are a bad school (also scam)
Most likely a combo of the above.

Re: Academic Dismissal from a tier 1 considering transferring
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2015, 05:15:08 PM »
Or that their students transferred (not a scam).

No student should go into LS expecting to transfer, but if your in the Top 10% at Florida Coastal and can transfer into FSU or Florida and pay 1/3 of the Tuition to attend a better school why not Transfer.