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Author Topic: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?  (Read 1600 times)

silverdoe91

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »
How about schools like Columbia, NYU, and Fordham? Do any of those schools fall into the category of highly ranked schools that actually "matter"? I know Fordham isn't as well known as the other two, but in NY its name does carry a lot of weight.

Miami88

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 05:58:26 PM »
Check out:

http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-four-tiers-t13-trap-no-name-and-joke.html

http://www.law-school-hacker.com/top-ranked-law-schools.html


For detailed data as to the above info and why they are saying that, take some time to check out

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com



In terms of employment prospects, you can ROUGHLY view the US News rankings as the following


T3 - Yale, Harvard, Stanford
These schools offer you as close of a "guarantee" for a job post graduation as you can possibly get. You will have the best chances to get most any job in almost any region and the strongest shot for big name Fed. Clerkships. This is NOT 100%, but as close to it as you can get.

T6 - Columbia, UChicago, NYU
As strong as T3 for employment minus the Fed. Clerkship boost.

T14 - The rest of the T14
A significant notch below T6 employment stats with not that great Fed. Clerkship prospects (i.e. you will need to be at the top 10-20% of your class for a shot at a fed. clerkships). These schools also tend to lean their employment to broad regions (i.e. The Mid West, The South, the east coast, etc), however, if you have connections to another region (ie your undergrad's city or your hometown), you probably have a good shot at landing a job there. You prob. will have little to no issue finding work in a small to medium sized law firm no matter your class ranking (assuming you don't completely fail).

"Honorable Mentions" - Vandy, UCLA, etc.
A big notch below T14 but these schools have ok prospects for big law in the school's same city. Very good chances for small to medium sized law firms within the school's general region (state).

T14 - 120ish
For the most part, basically everyone (all 100+ schools) here are in the same/similar boat as far as employment stats are concerned. Sure, if you are at the top of your class at a top 30 school, you will prob. have a stronger shot at better paying work in your immediate region, but that's about it. Your best chances here (in general) at landing jobs are in the school's immediate region (i.e. same state for the higher ranked schools to the same county/city for lower ranked schools). Very difficult - if not near impossible - for big law, and fat chance for fed. clerkship. Good to okay chances for small/medium sized law firms.

Sub T120 - Some ranked and all unranked schools
Beware. Unless you have family connections for a small law firm, you may face an uphill battle for jobs. Your best bet will be to open up your own practice. Get creative, network, and work your butt off. You should do the prior no matter what school you go to, but even more so here.


That is an immense oversimplification and generalization of US Rankings. You shouldn't base a decision on the above. The above is just a simplified view of employment stats. Although employment stats have gotten much more transparent over the past few years, they are far from perfect. Just because you get into a T14 school, it doesn't mean you will get w/e job wherever you want it. Likewise, just because you go to an unranked school, it doesn't mean you will never get a job.

The general take away is this... the lower in rank a school gets, the more region specific it becomes. Further, the lower in rank a school is, debt becomes more and more of an issue. i.e. Going into $120k of debt for Harvard and wanting to get a job in New York might be worth it. However, going into $120k of debt for the University of Puerto Rico and wanting a job in Chicago probably is not.

So.. you should base your decision on attending a law school on 1) where you want to live afterwards, 2) the debt you will face, 3) your feelings about the particular law school, and 4) as a tie breaker, refer to ranking.




Citylaw

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 12:33:32 PM »
Columbia, NYU, and Fordham are great schools. However, no school anywhere guarantees you a job.

Whatever law school you choose it will be up to you to graduate, obtain relevant internships, pass the bar, and find the right job for you.

I know you would like there to be some guarantee that choosing X law school will result in success, but there is no way to know. There are plenty of Harvard, Yale, Stanford grads that never passed the bar or found legal employment and plenty of Cooley Grads that passed the bar and went onto successful legal careers. Obviously a degree from Harvard, Yale, and Stanford will open more doors than Cooley, but no school will guarantee you anything it will be up to you as an individual to succeed in the legal profession.

I.M.D.Law

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 07:24:58 PM »
169 is a free ride at some T4 schools.
DO THAT INSTEAD
source: Guy who owes the same as someone who owns a nice home and a nice car, but wears a watch he bought from the dollar store.

silverdoe91

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 12:24:17 PM »
169 is a free ride at some T4 schools.
DO THAT INSTEAD
source: Guy who owes the same as someone who owns a nice home and a nice car, but wears a watch he bought from the dollar store.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'd have to study again and retake the test and *hopefully* increase my score by 10 points in order to do that...

silverdoe91

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 12:29:19 PM »
Check out:

http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-four-tiers-t13-trap-no-name-and-joke.html

http://www.law-school-hacker.com/top-ranked-law-schools.html


For detailed data as to the above info and why they are saying that, take some time to check out

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com



In terms of employment prospects, you can ROUGHLY view the US News rankings as the following


T3 - Yale, Harvard, Stanford
These schools offer you as close of a "guarantee" for a job post graduation as you can possibly get. You will have the best chances to get most any job in almost any region and the strongest shot for big name Fed. Clerkships. This is NOT 100%, but as close to it as you can get.

T6 - Columbia, UChicago, NYU
As strong as T3 for employment minus the Fed. Clerkship boost.

T14 - The rest of the T14
A significant notch below T6 employment stats with not that great Fed. Clerkship prospects (i.e. you will need to be at the top 10-20% of your class for a shot at a fed. clerkships). These schools also tend to lean their employment to broad regions (i.e. The Mid West, The South, the east coast, etc), however, if you have connections to another region (ie your undergrad's city or your hometown), you probably have a good shot at landing a job there. You prob. will have little to no issue finding work in a small to medium sized law firm no matter your class ranking (assuming you don't completely fail).

"Honorable Mentions" - Vandy, UCLA, etc.
A big notch below T14 but these schools have ok prospects for big law in the school's same city. Very good chances for small to medium sized law firms within the school's general region (state).

T14 - 120ish
For the most part, basically everyone (all 100+ schools) here are in the same/similar boat as far as employment stats are concerned. Sure, if you are at the top of your class at a top 30 school, you will prob. have a stronger shot at better paying work in your immediate region, but that's about it. Your best chances here (in general) at landing jobs are in the school's immediate region (i.e. same state for the higher ranked schools to the same county/city for lower ranked schools). Very difficult - if not near impossible - for big law, and fat chance for fed. clerkship. Good to okay chances for small/medium sized law firms.

Sub T120 - Some ranked and all unranked schools
Beware. Unless you have family connections for a small law firm, you may face an uphill battle for jobs. Your best bet will be to open up your own practice. Get creative, network, and work your butt off. You should do the prior no matter what school you go to, but even more so here.


That is an immense oversimplification and generalization of US Rankings. You shouldn't base a decision on the above. The above is just a simplified view of employment stats. Although employment stats have gotten much more transparent over the past few years, they are far from perfect. Just because you get into a T14 school, it doesn't mean you will get w/e job wherever you want it. Likewise, just because you go to an unranked school, it doesn't mean you will never get a job.

The general take away is this... the lower in rank a school gets, the more region specific it becomes. Further, the lower in rank a school is, debt becomes more and more of an issue. i.e. Going into $120k of debt for Harvard and wanting to get a job in New York might be worth it. However, going into $120k of debt for the University of Puerto Rico and wanting a job in Chicago probably is not.

So.. you should base your decision on attending a law school on 1) where you want to live afterwards, 2) the debt you will face, 3) your feelings about the particular law school, and 4) as a tie breaker, refer to ranking.

Thank you for that overview, it was very insightful. Not having debt when I graduate is definitely a priority for me, so I was thinking of maybe getting a full ride to a lower ranked school, to eliminate that monetary concern. But if I do that, I am worried that that will greatly lower my chances at employment, bc as of now, I don't have any connections! :/

Miami88

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 10:33:41 PM »
I think most people - including me - on this forum would support a decision of taking a "lower ranked" school at a lower cost than a relatively more prestigous one at a higher one.

Also, my overview was just that, a generalization. Just because you go to a "lower ranked" school doesn't mean you will have a hard (or even harder) time finding work. You just need to understand that, if you aren't in the top of your class and are attending a school outside the T6, big law may not be a safe bet. There are plenty of people who graduate from lower ranked schools and are fully employed. Big Law is just one sector of the work force, and one that several lawyers get burned out in. In fact, the strong majority of lawyers out there didn't attend a Top 6 school and don't work at those firms. Again, you just need to get realistic and forceful with your job search. As Citylaw says, outside the very top law schools, finding work is far more dependent on YOU rather than the school on your resume. And even for top law school grads, they still need to work their butt off to find the work, the doors will just be a little easier to open.. that's all.

A few things to keep in mind in your decision when it comes to debt and picking a lower ranked school...

1) Look at the total cost of attendance, not just tuition Also, for public schools, check out the difference in cost for in state tuition and, if you aren't a resident, what it takes to bbecome one.

2) Deduct from the total cost of attendance your scholarship. These are the numbers you need to compare. You might get $100k from school A and $50k from school B. But if A's COA is $250k and school B is $100k, that makes the effective COA for each school respectively $150k and $50. Therefore, school B is the better option from a money perspective even though they gave you far less in scholarship.

3) Figure out what conditions, if any, the school has on your scholarship. Some schools, particularly the top schools, just require that you don't flunk out of college. Other schools require that you maintain a particular GPA. A 3.0 might not sound that bad, but also find out what percentage of students that is associated with. It might be that 80% of the class has a 3.0 or better, which isn't that bad. However, if a 3.0 is like, the 90th percentile, then you have to keep in mind that you might very well lose that scholarship come your second and/or third year.

4) Do take into account employment statistics both in general and, more importantly, in the region you want to work in. Going into $30k of debt for a school in Seatle v. $60k for a school in Miami might sound like a no brainer, but if you want to practice in Miami, you will be facing a very steep journey coming out of Seatle.

5) Make a decision on your own personal circumstances. No one on here can tell you X Debt for Y School is worth it or not. We are not in your shoes. Maybe you are 50 y.o. and have 3 kids... maybe you are 20 y.o. with $0 debt as is. Maybe your entire childhood was a mess because of debt issues. Maybe your family is loaded. Who knows. You need to decide for yourself if something is or is not worth it.

Good luck!


Citylaw

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Re: 169 LSAT With a 3.18 GPA in Philosophy: What is Realistic?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 01:25:47 AM »
Great post Miami.

Silverdoe the rankings are not going to make it or break it for you. Any ABA school will provide you with a quality education and the reality is any educational experience is what you make of it. Honestly, if you attend Harvard, but sit in the back of the class, never interact with anyone, don't study etc you likely won't succeed. If you attend Cooley graduate as Valedictorian, connect with professors, get internships etc you will likely succeed.

As Miami said very few lawyers went to the top schools. There are 200 ABA schools therefore, 95% of practicing lawyers did not attend a top 10 school.

I encourage you not to over think the law school application process it is something many 0L's do, but keep it simple. If you want to be a lawyer in Miami attend law school in Miami and get out with as little debt as possible. If you want to be a lawyer in Eastern Washington attend law school in Eastern Washington and get out with as little debt as possible.

If you will only be happy working for Cravath then probably don't attend law school.