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Author Topic: we should replace the JD with an LLM.  (Read 1079 times)

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we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« on: May 13, 2014, 09:47:32 PM »
Half of law school is electives anyways. Why waste peoples time with that an internships?
Just make it a condensed masters degree instead and add a mandatory year practicing under senior attorneys after the bar the way that medics have to do.
It would no doubt make better attorneys and save people time/money.

jonlevy

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 11:35:43 PM »
The real way not to waste time and money is award a BA in law like England and quit pretending that a JD is the equivalent of a MA or PhD when it simply is professional training.

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2014, 01:00:44 AM »
The real way not to waste time and money is award a BA in law like England and quit pretending that a JD is the equivalent of a MA or PhD when it simply is professional training.

I'm not sure you understand how an LLB actually works.
It requires to first have an undergrad in prelaw and then get  a "second bachelors" in law
Same idea with the Bachelors of Medicine to be their version of an MD

Start of the 1900's here in the states it was an Associates Degree in America and before that just on the job training for people with less than an 8th grade education (Lincoln types) But I doubt we'd ever go to back to any of that on an ABA level, even if some states allow it (to an extent with restrictions)

jonlevy

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2014, 08:50:58 AM »
No, only in Canada does the LLB require prior college; in the UK and elsewhere you go straight into the LLB from secondary school (high school).  A much better way option IMO than the JD which forces you to shell out for 7 years of college!  However to become a solicitor in England, you must usually complete a training contract which is also a good idea considering most new lawyers in the US learn on the job.

Maintain FL 350

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 11:54:19 AM »
I'm not sure you understand how an LLB actually works.
It requires to first have an undergrad in prelaw and then get  a "second bachelors" in law

I love it when people speak authoritatively, yet are completely wrong.

An LL.B does not require a preceeding Bachelor's degree. The LL.B is usually completed in four years, followed by supervised on the job training. This is how it works in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and the Caribbean.

I'm currently preparing for the UK exams, and have several friends and family who are UK solicitors. Trust me, this is how it works.

I believe that Jon Levy is also a licensed UK solicitor?

In civil law jurisdictions the law diploma has various iterations. Sometimes it's a doctorate, sometimes not. It can be completed in four to six years depending. Admission to both LL.B and civil law diploma programs is usually quite competitive, and universities will strictly limit the number of entrants. 

Half of law school is electives anyways. Why waste peoples time with that an internships?


I agree. Electives at the graduate/professional level are an absurd waste of time. Just a way to get more tuition. Most students would be far better served spending that time learning how to draft a will or living trust, review a contract, or filing a motion. Our legal education is almost entirely academic, and needs more practical training.   

@_@

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 05:06:08 PM »
No, only in Canada does the LLB require prior college; in the UK and elsewhere you go straight into the LLB from secondary school (high school).  A much better way option IMO than the JD which forces you to shell out for 7 years of college!  However to become a solicitor in England, you must usually complete a training contract which is also a good idea considering most new lawyers in the US learn on the job.
There may be some places that have it that way, but its not "just Canada" it is that way in the carribean law schools too (I know, I looked into it at one point when I forgot how easily I burn in the sun)

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 05:07:48 PM »
I'm not sure you understand how an LLB actually works.
It requires to first have an undergrad in prelaw and then get  a "second bachelors" in law

I love it when people speak authoritatively, yet are completely wrong.

An LL.B does not require a preceeding Bachelor's degree. The LL.B is usually completed in four years, followed by supervised on the job training. This is how it works in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and the Caribbean.

I'm currently preparing for the UK exams, and have several friends and family who are UK solicitors. Trust me, this is how it works.

I believe that Jon Levy is also a licensed UK solicitor?

In civil law jurisdictions the law diploma has various iterations. Sometimes it's a doctorate, sometimes not. It can be completed in four to six years depending. Admission to both LL.B and civil law diploma programs is usually quite competitive, and universities will strictly limit the number of entrants. 

Half of law school is electives anyways. Why waste peoples time with that an internships?


I agree. Electives at the graduate/professional level are an absurd waste of time. Just a way to get more tuition. Most students would be far better served spending that time learning how to draft a will or living trust, review a contract, or filing a motion. Our legal education is almost entirely academic, and needs more practical training.
"You are completely wrong...................I agree with you"
great job

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2014, 07:49:09 AM »
I've long thought that there needs to be a change in legal education.  At a minimum, I think most agree that the 3rd year of law school should require students to take on an apprenticeship with an attorney actually learning the practice of law. 

The problem with education reform today is that not many schools are willing to part ways with the tuition dollars provided by 3Ls.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 02:50:29 PM »
I've long thought that there needs to be a change in legal education.  At a minimum, I think most agree that the 3rd year of law school should require students to take on an apprenticeship with an attorney actually learning the practice of law. 

The problem with education reform today is that not many schools are willing to part ways with the tuition dollars provided by 3Ls.

Many do that (in a sense) with required internships. The schools still make their money by making you basically just buy credits from them while working for free for someone else.

IMHO its the biggest scam of all. They invest almost no time or resources at all into it, and make the same as they would paying a prof to lecture in a room full of students all semester.

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: we should replace the JD with an LLM.
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
Oh forgedaboudit! Law School is the biggest racket ever created.  Think about how much money is increasingly made every year off of rising student tuition costs while schools with the same classrooms in the same building with the same professors continue to give the same lectures.  Very few industries are able to pull off a similar hustle.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston