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Author Topic: Law School Attrition  (Read 801 times)

Citylaw

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 09:36:12 PM »
That is a good solution as well.

 I am not 100% sure LSAT/GPA are perfect indicators for law school success, but I think adding an interview process for admission into ABA schools would address some of the issues.


I.M.D.Law

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 09:39:08 PM »
That is a good solution as well.

 I am not 100% sure LSAT/GPA are perfect indicators for law school success, but I think adding an interview process for admission into ABA schools would address some of the issues.

I agree that the LSAT has almost nothing to do with law, and GPA can vary based on field of study (a 3.9 in culinary arts vs a 2.75 in premed)
I suspect that is why many commonwealth nations require the undergrad to be in pre-law. Makes sense to me. Why bother to make it a "Doctorate" if you just toss any random undergrad beneath it? Seems pointless.

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 10:25:46 PM »
I think weeding out underperformers through attrition is the better option.

Here's why:

Lots of people with lowish GPA/LSATs gain admission to local law schools, pass all their classes, graduate, and become lawyers. They are given an opportunity to prove themselves, and rise to the occasion. Many go on to become DAs, PDs, Main Street lawyers, etc. and play a vital role in the legal market.

Their classmates who are given the same opportunity and don't rise to the challenge should be weeded out, but I don't see the sense in throwing the baby out with the bath water. It makes more sense to me to give people the chance, then make the necessary cuts.

I don't know if attrition needs to be as high as 33%, but 5-10% seems low. Attrition (academic) at my school was only around 6% I believe. It should have been higher, probably more like 15%. 

There is also a political aspect to this issue which makes it unlikely that the ABA will attempt to impose numeric admission standards. The arguments against such bright line regulations range from the detrimental effect on URM enrollment, to the impact on legal services to the poor, to the impact on small firms. I imagine that the law schools, too, don't want the ABA making admissions decisions for them.   

I.M.D.Law

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2014, 10:53:29 PM »
I think weeding out underperformers through attrition is the better option.

Here's why:

Lots of people with lowish GPA/LSATs gain admission to local law schools, pass all their classes, graduate, and become lawyers. They are given an opportunity to prove themselves, and rise to the occasion. Many go on to become DAs, PDs, Main Street lawyers, etc. and play a vital role in the legal market.

Their classmates who are given the same opportunity and don't rise to the challenge should be weeded out, but I don't see the sense in throwing the baby out with the bath water. It makes more sense to me to give people the chance, then make the necessary cuts.

I don't know if attrition needs to be as high as 33%, but 5-10% seems low. Attrition (academic) at my school was only around 6% I believe. It should have been higher, probably more like 15%. 

There is also a political aspect to this issue which makes it unlikely that the ABA will attempt to impose numeric admission standards. The arguments against such bright line regulations range from the detrimental effect on URM enrollment, to the impact on legal services to the poor, to the impact on small firms. I imagine that the law schools, too, don't want the ABA making admissions decisions for them.   
Do, you even know what the ABA is?

And if you are talking about a weeding out process you'd have to take that to the bar, that is far more rational if you are into "giving a chance"

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 12:56:59 AM »
Do, you even know what the ABA is?

Of course I do.

It's the American Barrister's Association, and is responsible for regulating solicitors and barristers in the United States, Canada, and Jamaica.

And if you are talking about a weeding out process you'd have to take that to the bar, that is far more rational if you are into "giving a chance"


What?

I.M.D.Law

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 01:59:59 AM »
Do, you even know what the ABA is?

Of course I do.

It's the American Barrister's Association, and is responsible for regulating solicitors and barristers in the United States, Canada, and Jamaica.

And if you are talking about a weeding out process you'd have to take that to the bar, that is far more rational if you are into "giving a chance"


What?
from your own post
"It makes more sense to me to give people the chance, then make the necessary cuts"

Are you confused about what you wrote yourself, or the idea of the bar being a gatekeeper?

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 01:36:03 PM »
Are you confused about what you wrote yourself, or the idea of the bar being a gatekeeper?

I'm confused with your statement "...if you're talking about a weeding out process, you'd have to take that to the bar".

Take what to the bar? A school's attrition policy? There is no such requirement. Why would that be more fair than allowing the schools (and students!) to make their own decisions? 

It boils down to this:

We agree that there are too many people in law school who shouldn't be there. I believe the best way to weed them out is through academic attrition, you think it is through the LSAT and new ABA standards regarding admission.

Just make the LSAT harder and make an ABA standard requiring minimum admission standards

Making the LSAT harder will result in lower scores across the board, but won't solve the problem. Law schools will simply admit classes with lower average scores.

Creating new ABA standards is very lengthy, complex, and political process. As far as I'm aware, the ABA has shown no interest whatsoever in adopting such a recommendation. There would be huge pushback against such a standard from the law schools themselves as well as various interest groups.

That leaves academic attrition as the most viable option for dealing with underperformers.

I.M.D.Law

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 04:15:23 PM »
I'll rephrase it then.

Yes, gatekeeper it at the bar level

worded even more simple: Make the bar exam harder to pass

I can't make it more simple that that

I.M.D.Law

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Re: Law School Attrition
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 09:45:27 AM »


The great attrition prices in the Vietnam War era were because of two aspects. First, going into that era, rating for undergrad applications and law educational institutions were a lot difficult. In many educational institutions quality rising prices came on in a big way as teachers desired to keep learners, even bad ones, away from set up forums. Second, most set up forums would pull individuals right out of law university to sent them off to the forested acres of Vietnam. Those that did managed on the concept that they had given you a deferment for a bachelors level (BA) and desire of an LLB was merely your brilliant way of preventing the set up by looking for another deferment. They would then set up you right out of law university. This triggered many educational institutions to be a part of Washburn and Chicago, illinois (the only educational institutions then allowing JDs) and allow a JD. My set up panel was one such set up panel but before I finished my first term, I had gone overage (I have an uncommon profession record before coming into law school). I offered the above so visitors could understand that it is difficult to evaluate information across the years and attract much from the evaluation unless one is aware of the "history" of each of the years.
Along with this attrition prices most of the students have to find out prices for cheap essay writing service for completing their academic writing assignments. Since most of the students are struggling with the essay writing assignments they have to approach any of the writing service for getting the perfect product for the successful completion of their law essays.
you.......think they wanted to draft overweight mouthbreathers for combat?????? ???