Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Possibilities  (Read 1416 times)

dreday92

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Possibilities
« on: March 20, 2014, 12:53:57 PM »
I took the June Lsat and got an ugly 145, went back to the board scoring a 152 on February. As an AA male computer engineering major with a 3.4 and respectable softs is there any chance that I can get into a top 100 program?

smujd2007

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2417
  • January 6, 2007
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 06:24:00 PM »
I think with early admission you have a shot.  However, are you really, really sure you want to go to law school?
smujd2007 is now an Attorney at Law!

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2014, 11:53:25 PM »
Maybe, but take the LSAT again and see what you come away with.

Also do not get to obsessed with the rankings remember U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit, unregulated, magazine offering an opinion. The top 100 schools change every year based on absolutely nothing and more importantly nobody cares whether the law school you attend is 84th or 112th. If you attend Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc it will make a difference. Nobody however, cares whether Gonzaga is ranked higher than Florida International.

Gonzaga will open more doors on the west coast specifically Washington while Florida International well open more doors on the east coast specifically Miami. If you want to live in Florida after graduation attend Florida International. If you want to live in Washington after graduation go to Gonzaga. The ranking will mean nothing.

With a 3.4 and URM status you can likely get into a few ABA schools, but if your getting a 145 on the LSAT you way want to consider whether law school is right for you. Remember you will need to take the Bar Exam upon graduation, which is a far more difficult and strenuous standardized test than the LSAT.  Plenty of people with sub 145 LSAT scores have gone on to pass the bar exam, but if standardized tests are difficult for you might want to evaluate law school. Law school and the bar exam is nothing, but standardized tests.

I want to conclude by saying it takes a lot of courage to take the LSAT I do not know how many people I have met who say they plan on taking the LSAT, but never get around to it. Putting yourself out there is something you should be proud of whether law school works out or not, and I encourage you to retake the LSAT again to prove to yourself law school is the right fit and more importantly open more law school doors.

Good luck!




Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 12:03:33 PM »
I'm a little bit late to the party but Citylaw and smu are correct - be sure you even want to go to law school in the first place because the LSAT is just the beginning. 

Also, as has been mentioned, rankings beyond the top 14 schools do not matter. I had a friend break a lease and move to another state to go from the #62 law school to be at the #52 law school.  Ironically, the graduates from her old class at the #62 ranked school wound up with jobs while she graduated with no job offers.  Moral of the story, rankings outside of the nationally recognized top 14 schools really do not matter. 

If you wind up at a Harvard or Yale then great. You'll be able to land a job pretty much anywhere in the country.  But once you start talking about the other 200 ABA accredited law schools theN you're really talking about where in the country you'd like to practice law because those schools are all regional in the employment options they can provide.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2014, 07:06:37 PM »


Also, as has been mentioned, rankings beyond the top 14 schools do not matter. I had a friend break a lease and move to another state to go from the #62 law school to be at the #52 law school.  Ironically, the graduates from her old class at the #62 ranked school wound up with jobs while she graduated with no job offers.  Moral of the story, rankings outside of the nationally recognized top 14 schools really do not matter. 


It is crazy how many students make that mistake I almost did the same thing, which would have resulted in giving up $80,000 in scholarship money. Thankfully, people talked some sense into me more importantly I imagine the #52 school your friend transferred to is now ranked #62 and the school they transferred from is #52.

For any potential law student reading this board I just want everyone to use common sense when making the life altering decision of where to attend law school and not make a life altering decision based on a magazine. Harvard is a good school and would be well regarded if U.S. News ranked them dead last.

To take Burning Sands example there is no #52 or #62 ranked school this year, but 3 school tied for 51 and 3 schools tied for 61.

Schools Ranked 61st in 2014  and past five year rankings.
61*   56*   58*   61*   72*   65*    Temple U (PA)    -
61*   68*   89*   84*   86*   94*    U of Arkansas-Fayetteville    -
61*   76*   69*   77*   60*   71*    U Miami (FL

Schools Ranked 51st in 2014 and past five year rankings
51*   54*   51*   56*   64*   65*    Baylor U (TX)    -
51*   64*   76*   60   72*   65*    Pennsylvania State U    -
51*   53   58*   67*   86*   77*    U Richmond (VA)

I guarantee you Miami Grad will have an easier time finding employment than a Baylor Grad in Miami despite being ranked 10 schools lower.

You can also see how drastically rankings change from year to year. The class that entered Richmond in 2010 was attending the 86th best law school then graduated from the 51st.

If someone enrolled at Miami n 2010 they enrolled in the 60th best school when they graduated in 2013 it was 76th then a year later it was back to 61.

I guarantee nothing significant changed at any of these schools and it is just terrible to see people make life altering decisions based on this magazine. U.S. News is not at fault for this they are a magazine offering an opinion, but people need to be smarter.






Gunner.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2014, 09:31:49 PM »
I dunno, if you say "Harvard" your name jumps to the top of the application pile at a lot of places.
If you get hired let's say a year sooner in your search, plus make an extra $10K a year, and more likely than not get promoted faster at least once.
It paid for itself with interest to go Ivy.

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 06:13:33 AM »
Good point regarding the arbitrary rankings in U.S. News & World Report. The fact that most schools move up and down from year to year when literally nothing at the school has changed speaks to the Rankings' lack of credibility. People assume that the Rankings are accurate simply because they place the ivies at the top of the list, but that completely ignores the inconsistencies at the other 200 schools.

@NewlyMinted: I don't think anyone is debating that a JD from Harvard would provide more opportunities than say a JD from Thomas Cooley. Citylaw's point, as well as my own, is that OUTSIDE OF the first 14 schools in the Rankings (that would include Harvard) the Rankings are arbitrary and largely irrelevant with respect to job opportunities.  Outside of the so-called "T 14", a school's job opportunities are mainly regional,  meaning employers in any given market pull from the law schools in or nearby their respective market. 

For example, Philadelphia law firms will hire from the T 14 first, and after they've done that they will likely still have a need for associates that exceeds their T 14 pool of candidates.  In order to fill their need, they will next turn to the law students in their region which would include graduates of Penn State, Temple, Rutgers Camden and Villanova.  Those same Philadelphia firms would probably NOT go out of their way to hire a graduate from the University of Illinois School of Law, even though that school is technically ranked higher than all of the area Philadelphia law schools.  Likewise, a University of Illinois grad will have a much better time securing employment in the Chicago market than the graduates of the aforementioned Philly market schools.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 12:12:08 PM »
Exactly it is not even necessarily the top 14 there are just some schools that are recognized nationally as elite schools. If Harvard was ranked dead last by U.S. News it would still open more doors than Cooley if it was ranked #1.

I did not need U.S. News to tell me Harvard, Yale, Stanford and Columbia are top notch schools.

Maintain FL 350

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 01:02:08 PM »
For example, Philadelphia law firms will hire from the T 14 first, and after they've done that they will likely still have a need for associates that exceeds their T 14 pool of candidates.  In order to fill their need, they will next turn to the law students in their region which would include graduates of Penn State, Temple, Rutgers Camden and Villanova.  Those same Philadelphia firms would probably NOT go out of their way to hire a graduate from the University of Illinois School of Law, even though that school is technically ranked higher than all of the area Philadelphia law schools.  Likewise, a University of Illinois grad will have a much better time securing employment in the Chicago market than the graduates of the aforementioned Philly market schools.

This is an excellent summation of how so many law students completely misjudge the impact of rankings. Every law school applicant should read this.

Clearly, a degree from an elite school like Harvard or Yale is going to be hugely beneficial. That degree is instantly recognizable anywhere in the world, and will open doors. Once you get away from those handful of truly elite institutions, however, you're talking about local/regional reputations.

I would even argue that several of the T14 are essentially highly respected regional schools.

I knew so many people who went to college with me in LA, then went to law school in Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Washington because they simply chose the school with the highest USNWR rank. They quickly found out upon returning to LA that local students had a distinct advantage in terms of connections and employment, and that nobody really cares that you went to the #42 school instead of the #53 school. At that level, alumni connections and location are far, far more important.

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • View Profile
Re: Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2014, 07:54:21 PM »
That is a great summary and it really is unfortunate how many people fail to use common sense when choosing a law school. When your in 0L or law school bubble it seems so important, but the reality is real lawyers are not paying attention to the rankings they have staffing needs etc. The majority of firms can only afford to recruit locally the San Diego D.A.'s Office is going to do OCI at the San Diego Law Schools and maybe L.A. ones. There is no way they are going to do OCI at Iowa, Kansas, or Idaho even if those schools are far higher ranked than Thomas Jefferson and Cal Western.