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Author Topic: July 2013 Bar Exam Results  (Read 2293 times)

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2014, 06:49:00 PM »
Those are all out of state schools. Not the best comparison.

What about in state ABA?

Maintain FL 350

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2014, 09:13:17 PM »
Out of state pass rates are relevant because they demonstrate how much tougher CA's bar exam is. I think it's reasonable to assume that if DL students were permitted to take easier bar exams they would have a higher (though not necessarily high) pass rate. 

What about in state ABA?

In state ABA schools generally do better, which leads me to a theory I've been kicking around for a while.

It's possible that lower ranked California ABA schools (and some CBE schools) are better institutions than their admissions criteria would indicate. What I mean is, if a school can take students with relatively low GPAs and LSATs and get them to pass the hardest bar exam in the country at a rate of 65-80%, that's not bad. Especially considering that many T1 schools can't seem to do it. 

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 10:11:07 PM »
Berkley has a good rep no one can deny that, but I suspect it more has to do with "home team advantage" you see this with other in state school grads in other states too.

CA Law Dean

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2014, 01:59:23 AM »
Maintain FL350,
When we get the individual school statistics for the February bar exam in a few weeks, I believe that your theory on which institutions are better educators vs. which are merely selecting and processing high achievers (and taking credit for their success) will be apparent. As an example, Monterey College of Law's median entering LSAT scores are 30-34% but our five-year cumulative bar pass rate for the California bar exam is over 60%. Several years ago, Stanford's median entering LSAT scores were 98%, but their first-time pass rate fell to 88%. Obviously 88% pass rates are better than 60%, but as you are suggesting, if you use the LSAT as a performance predictor . . . MCL has performed at twice the predicted outcome, while Stanford has underperformed by 10%. Maybe an investigation is needed to determine what Stanford did to "ruin" so many talented prospects, while MCL weaves straw into gold.
Monterey College of Law
www.montereylaw.edu

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2014, 03:26:40 AM »
Maintain FL350,
When we get the individual school statistics for the February bar exam in a few weeks, I believe that your theory on which institutions are better educators vs. which are merely selecting and processing high achievers (and taking credit for their success) will be apparent. As an example, Monterey College of Law's median entering LSAT scores are 30-34% but our five-year cumulative bar pass rate for the California bar exam is over 60%. Several years ago, Stanford's median entering LSAT scores were 98%, but their first-time pass rate fell to 88%. Obviously 88% pass rates are better than 60%, but as you are suggesting, if you use the LSAT as a performance predictor . . . MCL has performed at twice the predicted outcome, while Stanford has underperformed by 10%. Maybe an investigation is needed to determine what Stanford did to "ruin" so many talented prospects, while MCL weaves straw into gold.

I question the math used in this. By what you wrote they didn't "ruin" anymore compared to you, and I am not sure if straw to gold compared to them is a good analogy either since you say you got a 75% pass rate and they got an 88%. 
Based on what you wrote earlier today:
"Monterey College of Law's 2014 graduates who took the February CA bar exam achieved an 86% pass rate (6/7). Our total first-time takers is 75% (6/9). Our cumulative five year pass rate remains over 60%, even with our "anomaly" of last July that was previously discussed. "

I don't think anyone expects them to have a bar pass rate exactly the same as their average LSAT percentile if that is what you are trying to get at either. 

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 07:59:49 AM »
I'd also have to confirm that individual bar passage rates have little to do with LSAT scores. In fact, the bar has little to do with anything,  especially the practice of law. It's just a licensing exam that serves as a rights of passage to regulate the number of people who can practice law in any given state.  In real life, nobody will lock you in a room for 8 hours and require you to provide professional legal advice to multiple issues off the top of your head without conducting any research.  Indeed, that would probably be considered malpractice in most jurisdictions.

With regard to the CA bar specifically,  it has one of the lowest pass rates primarily because it permits anyone to sit for the bar irrespective of whether or not they graduated from an ABA accredited law school. Most other states, by contrast, only allow ABA grads to sit for their respective bar exams. When you compare ABA stats to ABA stats, it becomes apparent that California is not the "hardest bar exam in the country" that most think it is.
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Maintain FL 350

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 12:13:43 PM »
With regard to the CA bar specifically,  it has one of the lowest pass rates primarily because it permits anyone to sit for the bar irrespective of whether or not they graduated from an ABA accredited law school. Most other states, by contrast, only allow ABA grads to sit for their respective bar exams. When you compare ABA stats to ABA stats, it becomes apparent that California is not the "hardest bar exam in the country" that most think it is.

Take look at the statistics available on Calbar's site. Non-ABA grads made up a whopping 6% of first time test takers last February. If every single non-ABA grad failed, the effect would only be 6%.

Fully accredited ABA schools from out of state often have pass rates in CA that are 20-30%, even though their in state pass rates are 80-90%. The fact that CA has a tougher than usual bar exam is evidenced not by the handful of non-ABA grads who fail, but by the thousands and thousands of fully accredited ABA grads who fail.

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 06:36:02 PM »
I'd also have to confirm that individual bar passage rates have little to do with LSAT scores. In fact, the bar has little to do with anything,  especially the practice of law. It's just a licensing exam that serves as a rights of passage to regulate the number of people who can practice law in any given state.  In real life, nobody will lock you in a room for 8 hours and require you to provide professional legal advice to multiple issues off the top of your head without conducting any research.  Indeed, that would probably be considered malpractice in most jurisdictions.

With regard to the CA bar specifically,  it has one of the lowest pass rates primarily because it permits anyone to sit for the bar irrespective of whether or not they graduated from an ABA accredited law school. Most other states, by contrast, only allow ABA grads to sit for their respective bar exams. When you compare ABA stats to ABA stats, it becomes apparent that California is not the "hardest bar exam in the country" that most think it is.
The bar exam is not like real practice, I agree with you on that.
Statistically higher LSAT score, GPA, and even the school one attends do play factors in bar pass rates though

Citylaw

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 12:59:50 AM »
I think there is no question that an ABA grad is more likely to pass the bar exam than a CBA grad and someone who obtained a 180 LSAT score is more likely to pass the bar than someone who scored 150. It is entirely possible however, for both to pass, both to fail, or the 180 LSAT Harvard grad to not pass and the 150 LSAT CBA grad to pass.

At the end of the day whether you succeed or not in anything is up to the individual, but some people have an easier road to success than others. If you have the raw intelligence to score a 180 on the LSAT the road will be easier for you than someone who despite their best efforts achieved a 145 LSAT score.


Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: July 2013 Bar Exam Results
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2014, 02:50:37 AM »
I think there is no question that an ABA grad is more likely to pass the bar exam than a CBA grad and someone who obtained a 180 LSAT score is more likely to pass the bar than someone who scored 150. It is entirely possible however, for both to pass, both to fail, or the 180 LSAT Harvard grad to not pass and the 150 LSAT CBA grad to pass.

At the end of the day whether you succeed or not in anything is up to the individual, but some people have an easier road to success than others. If you have the raw intelligence to score a 180 on the LSAT the road will be easier for you than someone who despite their best efforts achieved a 145 LSAT score.

Exactly right.  I've known friends from Harvard Law who have failed the bar and friends from much lower tiered schools who have passed on their first attempt.  It all comes down to amount of preparation one puts in before the exam.  Raw intelligence will make it easier for one to learn the material but make no mistake about it - you still have to actually sit down and spend a significant amount of time LEARNING the material. 

Indeed, in the same year I had a friend from Cal Berkeley, a friend from U. Chicago, and a friend from Harvard who all failed the NY bar exam; they all procrastinated on studying until there were about 2 weeks left. Ironically, they each were extremely gifted at taking standardized tests like the LSAT and had grown accustomed to doing well with little to moderate preparation. When they applied that same strategy to the bar, not so good.   

Conversely, students who have regularly struggled with standardized tests tend to be fearful of failing the bar and thus become that much more motivated to putting in the time to study the material.  That doesn't necessarily mean that they will pass, but if they don't it's usually not due to a lack of effort.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston