Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: In Vino Veritas Competition  (Read 1057 times)

lrt8000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 04:17:33 PM »
And what if the law market doesn't come back? A lot of experts are saying it won't. You do realize how much law school costs these days.

Maintain FL 350

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 06:30:45 PM »
If there is a long term problem, then the market will correct it anyway. People will compare the high cost of attendance to the low employment rates, and schools like GGU may go out of business anyway. You already see some correction in the market based on the lower number of law school applicants this year.

I just don't like the idea of a nanny state which seeks to protect me from making my own decisions. Investing in law school is like investing in a business or a piece of real estate. Most people will be successful, but some will not. But for lots of other people schools like GGU offer an opportunity to become a lawyer that would not otherwise exist, and they go on to have successful legal careers.

I graduated from law school recently, so I'm aware of the cost. I chose to attend law school on a scholarship for that very reason. Without a scholarship, I probably wouldn't have gone. 

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 12:44:00 AM »
Golden Gate is a law school and it teaches you the law there are no guarantees and believe or not the world is tough. As for the legal market it is not tough if your assertive, confident and apply yourself. Believe it or not being a practicing attorney requires dealing with difficult and stressful situations and if you sit on the internet bitching about how unfair everything is then that is probably why these people are not being employed as attorneys.

I graduated from law school and many of my classmates did well many others did not, but the people who did not succeed where the same ones that complained how hard the professors were, how unfair it is etc. I cannot tell you how nuts this drives me.

Let's me real if you attend an ABA law school you have had tremendous opportunities there would be about 5.5. Billion in this world of 6 billion that would love to have a law degree and live in America and yet these spoiled brats complain.

What do you think some kid in Africa, Cambodia, Mexico etc would say to those whiny kids saying it is not fair that I have to look for a job? People in these countries have a hell of a lot harder time than not getting responses from their half assed job application attempts on Craigslist while sipping on Starbucks it really is not that bad.

I lived in China for a year prior to attending law school and it gave me a solid reality check, which has served me very well in law school and in my legal career. I suggest other whiny law students take a look around and realize the only thing stopping them from succeeding is themselves.

As for Golden Gate is it a cream of the crop law school? No.

Does Golden Gate guarantee a job for any of their students? No.

Do some Golden Gate grads succeed? Yes

Do some Golden Gate grads fail? Yes

Is someone over the age of 18 years old who has graduated from college,  written a personal statement about how they overcome obstacles, scored above the 50% percentile on the LSAT and received multiple letters of recommendation capable of making a decision whether or not to attend law school? Yes.

Should Golden Gate be forced to close? Absolutely not as Maintain states the marekt will correct itself or it won't and Golden Gate is a business first and foremost just like every other form of school in America like Law School, Med School, Universities,  Police Academies, Trade Schools , etc if these schools cannot make enough money to sustain themselves they close if they have enough to sustain themselves they remain open. Plain and simple.

As for the whiny law students who say how unfair it all is to have been privileged enough to be given $100,000 loans to support themselves to receive an education and license to practice law get an F'ing clue and deal with your problems that is what you have to do as an attorney.

Maintain FL 350

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 01:41:35 AM »
The best post I've read all year, Amen.

If the people who whine about not being able to find a job would spend half as much energy on developing marketable skills, they'd be employed. I meet lawyers every single day who graduated from lower tier ABA and Calbar schools and who have thriving solo and small firm practices, are prosecutors and public defenders, even judges. The one thing that these people have in common is that they are assertive go-getters who bust ass every day.

I know a girl who worked at a family law firm during the day and went to law school at night. She gained enough experience over four years to feel competent opening her own office after graduation. She now has a couple of lawyers working for her, makes a couple hundred grand a year, and has only been an attorney for a few years.

Two things that hold back many new law grads are immaturity and unrealistic expectations.

Immaturity
Many law students go straight from high school to college, college to law school, then hit the job market for the first time at age 25. They've been financially and emotionally supported by someone else their entire life, and have been told that they're a precious snowflake. They feel that they are entitled to a job, and expect their law school or the legal profession to supply them with one. Or, perhaps they expect the government or ABA to save them from even going to law school by shutting down schools which won't supply them with the jobs they think they deserve.

It's a classic Freudian transference of parental reliance, and smacks of the nursery.

Expectations
Unless you make a concerted effort to develop practical, marketable skills during law school, you really don't have much to offer when you graduate. The fact that you got an "A" in civpro is nice, but it doesn't bring in clients. Especially in this economy, firms and government offices don't have the resources to train a smart but clueless new lawyer. People that need lots of supervision are out.

Thus, most people (and especially the ones who are graduating from non-elite schools) need to be very realistic about their options. At least for the first couple of years, your choices are likely to be low pay/long hours vs. unemployment. It sucks, but it's the way it is. I've met people who literally refuse to work because they think the legal jobs they've been offered are beneath them.

Conversely, a buddy of mine from law school has an entirely successful criminal defense solo practice and is only two years out of school. It may not always be the most glamorous work, but he's doing better than the people who are unemployed and holding out for a better offer.

Bottom line: take some responsibility for your own life.   

lrt8000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 02:41:45 PM »
As for Golden Gate is it a cream of the crop law school? No.

Does Golden Gate guarantee a job for any of their students? No.

Do some Golden Gate grads succeed? Yes  21% with full-time, long-term legal jobs except sole practitioners (2012 graduating class) LST

Do some Golden Gate grads fail? Yes 79% of the 2012 graduating class lacked full-time, long-term legal jobs according to LST

A 21% employment rate is terrible. Law schools with such a low rate must share part of the blame. You can't just blame it on their students.

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 01:13:14 AM »
Statistics Response:
As I have stated several times this 21% number or the employment number at any school 9 months after graduation is misleading particularly in California for the following reasons.

1) You do not find out if you passed the California Bar until 7 months after graduation and the results are released right before Thanksgiving so nobody interviews or hires you during the 2 month holiday window and cannot even really start looking for a job until January and then you have to go through interviews etc. Believe it or not you can be hired 10, 11, 12 , 13 months after graduation and at the competition I mentioned there were numerous 2012 GGU alumni there all who were employed, but were hired in March or April of 2013, but these employed grads don't count under the 9 month from graduation calcuatoin.

2) You cannot keep track of every single graduate.

3) As I mentioned previously GGU is an alternative school many people attend part-time, working in business and have no desire to work as lawyers or are older and want the intellectual challenge or one guy I met in law school said he just wanted to prove to his parents that he could get through law school, but never wanted to practice.

So those are some of the flaws with the employment statistics you keep citing.

ASSUMING STATS ARE ACCURATE
[/u]
Lets assume 100% of graduates GGU are 25 years old ready to work and report every detail of their employment to career services and if you do not get hired 9 months after graduation you can never find employment as an attorney. 21% of graduates found a way to make it happen and there is not one ABA school that has a 0% employment rate and even if it did anyone smart enough to get into and through law school then pass the bar is capable of making decisions.

REALITY OF BEING A LAWYER

As Maintain states you can't feel sorry for yourself and have a lot of control to develop marketable skills.  I am an attorney and I deal with real people and believe it or not some unfair things happen when you practice law. When unfair things happen I do not sit on the internet complaining about how unfair it is if I did then I would be unemployed. Instead as a licensed lawyer I have to deal with the and figure sh*t out.

LAW SCHOOL & LAW LICENSE
Remember Getting a law degree and passing the bar make you "minimally competent" to practice law. From that point it is not like elementary school where everybody gets a participation and everyone gets to feel good about themselves and have a 6 figure job handed to them. Instead with that license you have to practice law round up clients,  to win trials, figure out what judges want and research issues.

Believe it or not there are a lot of people with legal problems out there and Maintain mentions several friends that have tapped into that market. People want a lawyer to solve their problems that is what the job requires if the lawyer is sitting around feeling for themselves then they are not going to get hired. Alternatively if the lawyer takes control, addresses the situation, and resolves the legal issue they will get business and referrals. The legal profession is not a charity and it is competitive don't get into the profession if you can't handle that.

The point is you can succeed from any school and if your a licensed lawyer you can make things happen, but it is a tough profession and if your instinct is to "bitc* and moan" about how unfair it is well then you will be bit**ing and moaning about being an unemployed lawyer for a long time. No practicing lawyer or judge and particularly no clients wants to hear how unfair it is. A lawyer's job is to find solutions to difficult issues plain and simple.

TRUE ADVERSITY
I guess what really kills me is there are American Lawyers that went through true adversity such as the first woman attorney and first African-American Attorney.

First woman to be admitted to practice law Belva Ann Lockwood
Belva  graduated law school, but was not allowed to take the bar and she had to fight to do that. Once she passed she was considered property and many judges would not let her speak. Obviously men did not want to hire a woman attorney, but she made it happen that is what a true lawyer does. She did not sit around and feel sorry for herself like these spoiled rich white kids who say it is not fair they need to get a clue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belva_Ann_Lockwood

Macon Allen First African American Lawyer

The first African American attorney who had to fight to be licensed and deal with blatant racism and unimaginable adversity and hostility. Something whiny the whinny JD blogger sipping on his cappuccino complaining about how hard everything is could not possibly imagine.


Either Macon or Belva along with a laundry list of other people have overcome true adverserity and deal with a lot worse than not having 6 figure salaries handed to them for showing up.   Anyone from Golden Gate or any other law school is fully capable of succeeding in the current legal market and if they have any hope of being a successful attorney they better not sit around and complain about how unfair it is, because that is all they will be doing.

Conclusion:
Should GGU or any other law school be accountable for their students finding jobs? No. At every ABA law school college educated adults decided to attend law school. We live in a Country full of opportunity and there are no real obstacles to overcome all you have to do is try and realize  nothing will be handed to you. Graduating law school and passing the bar make you minimally competent to practice law GGU and every other ABA school give you the opportunity to become licensed that is the extent of their responsibility. If GGU or any other ABA school doesn't give you a bar exam ticket then they should be held accountable, but that is all any ABA school owes their students.


Again, Belva Ann Lockwood and Macon Allen had plenty to complain about, but they didn't waste their time whining instead overcome difficult obstacles, got results and made history which is what being a lawyer is all about. Whether you went to Harvard or Golden Gate if you sit around feeling sorry for yourself you are not going to make it is an attorney. Conversely, if you attend Harvard or Golden Gate and bust your ass to pass the bar you can do a lot of amazing things, but you have to step up and make it happen no law school is going to make it happen for you when your an attorney you are accountable that is what you sign up for.




livinglegend

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
    • View Profile
    • legalmatch
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »
Great post City.

You wonder what people like Belva or Macon could have accomplished having only to deal with the problems reported by the whiny recent grads who have to apply for jobs and deal with rejection occassionally. 

As further evidence of it being the person not the school I recently had two interns and working under me one from Santa Clara one from Hastings. Both are waiting for bar results, which is understandably a difficult time particularly in California for the reason you described above.

I tried to help them out and give them job leads, but the Hastings person never follows through the Santa Clara one has and got one of the jobs I referred him to, but he had to apply the Hastings person just never follows up and believe it or not if you don't apply for a job it doesn't matter school you went to.

The world is tough and the legal world is even tougher don't get into it if your going to complain about how unfair things are.

Citylaw

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
Re: In Vino Veritas Competition
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 09:55:27 PM »
Thanks legend and I agree I try to help students out as well some take the help others don't.

No matter what school you attend if you don't follow through your never going to succeed as a lawyer. I also deal with a number of lawyers who fail to follow through and are ineffective and there a number that follow through and are very effective that is really what the legal profession is all about managing your time and responding appropriately it is 90% of the battle and that is something school cannot teach you.

Whether you attend Golden Gate or Harvard your success will be dependent much more on you than the name of your school.