Law School Discussion

Paul Campos on Hofstra Law

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 12:54:35 AM »
Nope. The stats you say are for 2013 are actually from 2011. Look at Hofstra on Law School Transparency.

fall 2010 158 3.58
fall 2011 159 3.32
fall 2012 157 3.26
fall 2013 154 3.14 (according to Hofstra who studies at Hofstra Law)

This looks like a big drop to me.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 01:21:54 AM »
You are right I was a year off, but many schools are going down including Mr. Campos's University of Colorado.

Median GPA 3.64
Median LSAT 164


Median GPA 3.58
Median LSAT 162

Law school applications are down substantially across the Country so I imagine the numbers at the majority of schools are dropping. However, none of that really matters as I have been saying all along any ABA school will provide you with a quality education and we can nitpick numbers all day, but they really are meaningless in determining who will or will not succeed in the legal profession. Simply because University of Colorado's Median GPA and LSAT went down this year does not mean the professor's became worse or the facilities became dilapidated. It is all the same and at Colorado as with Hofstra a quality education will be provided and it will be up to the Students to determine how they use it.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 11:45:58 AM »
Not true. Compare the us news rankings to the placement outcomes on Law School Transparency.  There is a significant correlation between the us news rank and the placement outcome.

I think you misunderstood my point. Yes, there is a strong correlation between the rankings of elite schools and placement rates. NYU, for example, has a 91% placement rate. But elite schools like NYU, Stanford and Chicago were prestigious long before the current flawed rankings scheme came about. They always had a great placement.

My point is that once you get into the broad swath of non-elite schools reputations are local and specific rank matters a lot less. I looked at the numbers on LST and compared them to USNWR. Contrary to your point, there does not seem to be much correlation at all once you get away from the elite institutions. Hofstra's placement rate is right in line with the other schools you mentioned, and even better than some higher ranked NY schools.

How do you explain T1 schools (like Campos's employer, Colorado) that have placement rates similar to Hofstra? You yourself mentioned Washington and Lee having a low placement rate. Aren't they ranked higher than Hofstra?

My point is not to dispute that placement rates are low, they are. The point is that they are low across the board, unless you're looking at elite schools.

My point was that Campos had some interesting comments about Hofstra. You can agree with them or disagree with him but he is the expert. It seems to me that ""Hofstra’s law school is a classic example of an institution whose very reason for being has become at the least highly questionable." is a pretty harsh statement.

It's an utterly ridiculous statement. I would expect such snarky pap from a 0L, but not a professor. The purpose of any law school is to teach the law. As long as Hofstra is doing that according to the standards set forth by the ABA they are fulfilling their purpose.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 12:15:32 PM »
Did you know that according to the latest ABA job placement statistics (for 2012), only 51.2% of Hofstra's graduates had long-term, full-time legal jobs? That means that 48.*% didn't. Almost half the graduating class []  Is this acceptable?

It's terrible, but it's not too different from most non-elite schools. This is what happens when you have a crappy economy, there are fewer jobs. In fact, many T1/T2 schools have similar (or worse) numbers. I just don't understand the particular gripe with Hofstra.

Law schools are not surrogate employment agencies. Their first duty is to teach you the law, and you may actually have to find a job on your own, believe or not. It's a harsh reality check for all the entitled special snowflakes who have lived off  mom and dad for 25 years and think they "deserve" a job. It is not, however, the school's fault that after you leave the school you can't get a job. The school may provide assistance with OCI, mock interviews, etc., but the ultimate responsibility lies with the graduate.

Is it acceptable that Hofstra only placed 4% in biglaw?

Yes, it's acceptable. In fact, it's acceptable if Hofstra places 0% in biglaw as long as they don't claim to be a biglaw feeder school. Biglaw represents a tiny fraction of all the available legal jobs, and is considered the most competitive. In a bad economy, this is even more pronounced. It should not be surprising that these handful of prestigious jobs go almost exclusively to elite law school grads, and it isn't a failing of a particular school if they choose to hire elite grads over non-elite ones. Does it actually surprise you that NYC biglaw firms prefer Harvard and Yale grads over Hofstra? This should be common sense.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 07:25:16 PM »
Could not have said it better myself Maintain. 4% Biglaw is acceptable believe it or not there are a number of people out there who do not want to work in BigLaw. Additionally, those at Hofstra should be realistic and know unless they finish in the top 4-5% of the class and even then no guarantee of BigLaw.

BigLaw is like getting drafted to the NFL/NBA about .01 percent of people make it. If you play College Basketball at Division 1 San Jose State odds are you are not going to the NBA. You can probably play internationally somewhere, but you will not make a multi-million dollar contract, but if you really want to be a professional basketball player San Jose State can get you place somewhere.

Law School and BigLaw is no different about 1% of lawyers are in Biglaw and unless you attended on of the name schools odds are you will not get an interview let alone hired. However, there are plenty of City Attorney, D.A., P.D., Litigation, Small firms etc that work well if you want to be a lawyer, but if you want to be making $200,000 k at graduation in Manhattan you better have finished in the top of your class at a T14 school.

I also agree Paul Campos's attack on Hofstra is on par with what a naive 0L would write, but Mr. Campos went straight into Academia and has no practical legal experience so it is not that surprising his attack was so unprofessional.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 10:23:50 PM »
Hofstra just fell from 89th to 113th this year so it will take a couple of years to be reflected in placement figures. Again, think what you want about Campos, but a lot of people consider him an expert on legal education.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2013, 02:24:02 AM »
I imagine there are plenty of people who think Campos is an expert, but it doesn't make them right a lot of people thought the behind this photo was an expert, but the tagline on the image says it all.

One thing I can guarantee is Hofstra's placement will not be impacted by this drop in rankings. I highly doubt even one law firm anywhere is revoking job offers to individuals they hired based on this drop in rankings and OCI's are not being cancelled. Attorney's in the real world do not make decisions based on the rankings nor do they care about them. Common sense gets applied and Harvard is a good school, but I encourage you to go and speak with lawyers who have been licensed 5+ years and ask them what U.S. News has ranked Hofstra Law School. There response will be I have no idea and I don't care.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 03:16:26 PM »
Agreed City nobody cares and it is very possible Hofstra will be back to 89th next year and all the 1L's that enrolled to the 89th best school in 2012 then became 2L's when it was the 113th and became the 3L's when it rises back to 89th and had the same professors buidling etc will wonder what actually happened and of course the answer is nothing.

Schools jump 20 sometimes 25 spots any given year. Or U.S. News could change their system and not keep track past 100 like they did until 2011.

Bottom line is Hofstra is a fine school, but obviously not Harvard, Yale, etc and you don't need a magazine to tell you that.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 06:46:36 PM »
Hofstra will definitely not be higher than 113th this year. and it will probably be lower.  Its entering LSAT fell from 157 last year to 154 this year, and its gpa fell from 3.26 to 3.14.  This is a huge drop, especially for the lsat.  And how do you know that Hofstra is a fine school? Did you go there? Have you ever visited there? I thought you were in the SF market. 

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2013, 12:24:08 AM »
I used to live in New York before law school, but I applied and was accepted to Hofstra. I visited the school and it was fine, but not for me. Plenty of students and lawyers greatly enjoyed their experience at Hofstra and the reality is any ABA school is fine they all need to meet the same critera that is the point of ABA accreditation.

A 3 point drop is really not that significant and as I mentioned in another post LSAT/GPA make up only 22% of a schools rankings and a number of schools with lower LSAT/GPA are ranked higher particularly on the East Coast. U.S. News is a magazine headquartered in the East Coast and  therefore schools on the East always rank higher. Stanford will never rank higher than Harvard or Yale and again that is why it is a magazine nothing more.

Also as an FYI a 3 point drop is not that significant obviously they would rather the number rise, but the school Paul Campos works at Univeristy of Colorado dipped as well so it is not that uncommon.

Class of 2012 Colorado
Median LSAT 164
Median GPA 3.64

Class of 2013 Colorado
Median LSAT 162
Median GPA 3.58

Paul Campos your school's median LSAT dropped 2 points and the median LSAT dropped .06.  Instead of criticizing other people he should take a look in the mirror and this just goes to show median LSAT's/GPA's drop I am sure I could these drops at a number of schools considering all I had to do was look at one school to find a drop from 2012 to 2013.

Do not get to obsessed with these numbers they are meaningless in the real world and to any 0L's or current law students please use common sense when making law school decisions and do not make life altering decisions based on magazine's or minor drops in LSAT/GPA stats there are so many more important factors to consider when choosing a law school such as location, cost and how you personally feel about the school I cannot emphasize that enough.