Law School Discussion

Paul Campos on Hofstra Law

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 11:36:39 PM »
The fact remains that only 51.2% of Hofstra's 2012 graduates got fulltime jobs that required a JD. This would be important to you if you were a recent law school graduate. Also, according to Campos, "Three years ago the entering class’s median GPA was 3.58; this fall it is 3.14 (This latter figure is now lower than that of all but a handful of bottom-tier law schools with frankly quasi-open admissions policies)." That is a major drop in gpa.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 01:23:36 AM »
What does it matter if the GPA drops?

Frankly there will always be unemployed individuals from every institution in every field. I am not sure if you have gone through law school or not, but I just judged at a Mock Trial Competition this weekend and most of my classmates where there. We graduated a few years ago and all of us are employed now. For many of these people it took a year or longer to find their first legal job and the law is like every other profession it takes time to start a career. Additionally,  if you finish in the bottom half of the class at Hofstra, which 50% of the 2012 Class did or don't pass the bar first time around, which 21% of the 2012 did it will difficult to find employment nine months after graduation.

No school anywhere guarantees you a job and no law school guarantees  you will pass the bar except Marquette & University of Wisconsin due to the state of Wisconsin's bar admission rules. Livinglegend and Maintain are right on point with everything they have said.

You are also correct there will be people from Hofstra that do not find employment as lawyers or pass the bar, but there are no guarantees anywhere. Hofstra will provide you with a solid legal education as will any other ABA school, but graduating from there will not guarantee you a job or even that you will pass the bar.

There are plenty of successful Hofstra Alumni here is a list of 460 Super Lawyers from the School. so plenty of people make it from there and many do not same can be said about every single ABA schools. Not even Stanford or Harvard have 100% employment or bar passage rates.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 02:22:41 PM »
gpa is important because gpa affects the us news law rank. Like it or not, law firms hire based on a schools us news rank. Hofstra fell from 89th to 113th last year. This year its gpa fell from to 3.26 to 3.14 and its median lsat fell from 157 to 154. That's a huge drop. Therefore Hofstra will probably drop again for the next us news rankings. They could even fall into the 4th tier.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 03:03:58 PM »
gpa is important because gpa affects the us news law rank. Like it or not, law firms hire based on a schools us news rank. Hofstra fell from 89th to 113th last year.

Not at this level they don't. A firm that is willing to hire from the 89th ranked school is probably willing to hire from the 113th ranked school. Conversely, even if Hofstra shoots up in the rankings to 75th it will still make very little difference in terms of employment prospects. The big firms are still going to want NYU/Columbia, etc., and the small firms which are already populated with Hofstra, CUNY, and NYLS grads aren't going to make a huge distinction between 89 and 113.

Places that would never hire a Hofstra grad (or any non-elite grad) still won't, and places that do hire T4 grads aren't nearly as concerned with the rankings anyway. The employment prospects faced by Hofstra grads are not terribly different from those faced by most non-elite law school grads in major urban areas. 

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 03:51:18 PM »
Not true. Compare the us news rankings to the placement outcomes on Law School Transparency.  There is a significant correlation between the us news rank and the placement outcome. 

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 04:18:45 PM »
Also Hofstra is not supposed to be competing with CUNY and NYLS. They are supposed to be competing with St. Johns (98) and Brooklyn (80). NYLS is unranked in us news and CUNY is 132.  Yes Hofstra grads can compete with CUNY and NYLS grads, but they will have problems competing with St. Johns and Brooklyn grads based on Hofstra's current us news rank.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 06:52:20 PM »
Maintain is correct schools such as Harvard, Yale, etc have much higher placement rates, but nobody cares about the difference between 89th and 113. In New York Columbia and NY are elite schools, but you didn't need U.S. News to tell you that.

As to your point that rankings have a direct impact on Law School Transparency that is untrue.  Let us look specifically at New York Schools and your citation to St. John's. Hofstra has a higher Law School Transparency Score than St. John's and again I don't think law school transparency stats mean much of anything, but the list below just shows rankings have no impact on LST employment scores. I will say I am 100% behind the mission of LST, but as I stated before measuring what individuals do with their life is nearly impossible.

List of NY Schools Employment Scores and U.S. News Ranks:

I have excluded Columiba, NYU, Cornell since they are in the top 25 and that means something.

 51.2 % Employment Score

U.S. News Rank: 6 way tie for 113th

St. John's
 49.1% employment score
U.S. News Rank 6 way tie for 98th.

Other NY Schools not including Columbia, Cornell, NYU, and Fordham, which do have higher employment rates, because they are elite schools the rest nobody cares if a school is ranked #72 or 109.

 50.2% employment score

U.S. News Rank 2 way tie for 132nd place

 48% employment score
U.S. News Rank 6 way tie for 80th place

53% employment score
U.S. News Rank 3 way tie for 58th

 52% employment score

U.S. News Rank 2 way tie for 132nd

New York Law School
39.4% employment score

U.S. News: Unranked.

47.8% employment score

U.S. News Rank: 6 way tie for 134th place

45.4% employment score

U.S. News Rank: 2 way tie for 96th

SUNY Buffalo
Employment score 51.2

U.S. News Rank:
5 way tie for 86th

49.6% employment score

U.S. News Unranked

The rankings range from 58  to unranked and not one of these schools has over a 55% employment score. Many with higher employment scores are "ranked" higher.

Remember U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit, unregulated magazine that is offering an opinion. Schools rankings change drastically year by year for no real reason here is the rankings for the past 5 years Hofstra in 2009 was out of the top 100 then in 2011 worked its way into the amazing 11 way tie for 84th place and it has gone down again. Also since U.S. News can do whatever they want there are no tier 4 schools anymore they changed the system last year and instead of ranking the top 100 then having a tier 3 and tier 4. They decided to rank up to 150 and not rank the rest so Hofstra can't fall to tier 4 it doesn't exist anymore.

Additionally, GPA only makes up 12% of the rankings the majority of it is based on people filling out scantrons. Also remember U.S. News is a for-profit magazine that ranks more than law schools and decided Albuquerque, New Mexico is the #1 place to live. Citation here does that actually make New Mexico the best place to live?

Again in the end Hofstra is a decent school and U.S. News Rankings and Law School Transparency are not something anyone should make a life altering decision based on.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 08:43:54 PM »
My point was that Campos had some interesting comments about Hofstra. You can agree with them or disagree with him but he is the expert. It seems to me that ""Hofstra’s law school is a classic example of an institution whose very reason for being has become at the least highly questionable." is a pretty harsh statement.  I don't think you can argue that Hofstra has precipitously lowered its admissions statements when "Three years ago the entering class’s median GPA was 3.58; this fall it is 3.14 (This latter figure is now lower than that of all but a handful of bottom-tier law schools with frankly quasi-open admissions policies). Over the past two years the entering class’s median LSAT has gone from 159 (77.6th percentile) to 154 (59.7th); a quarter of the new entering class has LSAT scores lower than those of the average test-taker." Finally, " Hofstra nominally charges a preposterous $49,500 in annual tuition and fees, even though half of the 2012 graduating class didn’t get legal jobs, and a grand total of 17% of graduates reported salaries of $55,000 or more nine months after graduation."

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 09:09:23 PM »
Yea Paul Campos can comment all he wants, but just to clarify he is not an expert.

Is law school tuition to expensive? I would agree, but Hofstra doesn't charge much more than other schools and it is located in NY, which is one of the most expensive places in the United States so it is not that surprising.

As for $55,000 at graduation that is not uncommon and a newly licensed lawyer truthfully has no idea what they are doing. After a few years of experience the salaries increase significantly, but entry level lawyers do not make much money. Entry level doctors make even less than lawyers and their tuition is more expensive and getting an M.D. takes four years. For example a University of Texas M.D. Resident makes $51,859.

The salaries increase in both the Medical and Legal Fields, but the first few years are brutal. You have tremendous responsibility in either position and you barely known anything when you first graduate. I will also say that if your goal is to be "rich" don't go to law school or into medicine. You can make a lot more money in sales, insurance, banking, etc, but the legal and medical professions give you the ability to do things nobody else can and if you really want to be a doctor or lawyer then it can be a rewarding career. If the sole purpose of going to law school is to make money you will be probably be disappointed.

I can tell you I love my job as an attorney and the thrill of being in a trial cannot be matched. I could be making more money doing something else, but I love being a lawyer. If you really want to be a lawyer or doctor then any accredited school can give you the tools to succeed.

If you want to look at numbers and stats etc go for it, but it doesn't mean anything. Additinoally, Paul Campos is a fraud he criticizes professors for not having enough legal experience, but he himself is a professor that has never practiced law.

Paul Campos rips on Hofstra for being to expensive and not placing students. However, he is a law professor at Colorado, which charges $31,000 for residents or 38,000 for non-residents. Since you seem to think Law School Transparency has so much value it should be noted the school paying Paul Campos's salary has the same 51% LST score as Hofstra the school he is criticizing as being out of date.

51.4% employment score

51.2% employment score

Again as I have said throughout this thread Hofstra is not some elite institution and frankly outside of the TOP law schools the rankings, placement numbers, etc are up to the individual student. Plenty of people succeed from Hofstra and plenty do not.

Paul Campos though is the classic example of a guy talking out of his ass and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Seriously, if I was his student and my tuition dollars were going to a man writing how bad legal education is I would lose my sh**. If this guy really cared he should not collecting tuition checks, but he doesn't he wants to make money anyway he can and rip on a school across the Country that is performing at the same level as the one he is collecting checks from.

Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 12:18:07 AM »

Here is the official ABA data from LSAC for the past four years.

While the Median GPA went down last year the median LSAT went up from 158 to 160. Additionally, the school's admission standards have gone up every year below are the specific median GPA/LSATS over the past four years notice the GPA had gone up every year.

Hofstra 2010-2013 Median GPA/LSAT

Median GPA 3.28
LSAT 155

Median GPA 3.56
LSAT 157

Median GPA 3.58
LSAT 158

Median GPA down to 3.32
Median LSAT up to 160

Just for fun let's again rip on Mr. Campos whose school has not improved as much as Hofstra over the past 4 years.

Colorado Numbers 2010-2013

Median GPA 3.66
Median LSAT 163

Median GPA 3.68
Median LSAT 163

Median GPA DOWN to 3.61
Median LSAT 164

Median GPA 3.64
Median LSAT 164

Pretty Stagnant on University of Colorado's end and since 2010

Hofstra overall median GPA since 2010 even with the drop this year is up overall .4 and their Median LSAT has gone up 5 points.

Colorado since 2010 overall GPA is down .02 and their LSAT has improved by 1 point.

Again Mr. Campos should probably focus on the issues at his own school, which has been stagnant and just dropped seven spots in the rankings this year itself.

I feel bad for ripping on Colorado this much as I am sure it is a fine school, but for a professor who school is in disrepair and has itself raised it's tuition from $22,000 per year in tuition in 2010 to it's current $31,000 per year in tuition price tag should focus on improving issues at his school not ripping on a school in another state.

Again, I do not mean to discredit the University of Colorado Law School, but Mr. Campos ragging on other schools is completely unprofessional and he is embarrassing their school. I am sure both Hofstra and Colorado along with every other ABA school provide a quality education.