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Author Topic: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law  (Read 2554 times)

lrt8000

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Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« on: October 09, 2013, 07:24:14 PM »
Paul Campos has some interesting comments on Hofstra law. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/10/dealing-with-the-crash-pt-3 "Hofstra’s law school is a classic example of an institution whose very reason for being has become at the least highly questionable. Located in the hyper-saturated New York City-area legal market (there are about 15 law schools within 100 miles of its campus), Hofstra nominally charges a preposterous $49,500 in annual tuition and fees, even though half of the 2012 graduating class didn’t get legal jobs, and a grand total of 17% of graduates reported salaries of $55,000 or more nine months after graduation."

"Over the last three years Hofstra has, even more than American, defenestrated its admission standards. Three years ago the entering class’s median GPA was 3.58; this fall it is 3.14 (This latter figure is now lower than that of all but a handful of bottom-tier law schools with frankly quasi-open admissions policies). Over the past two years the entering class’s median LSAT has gone from 159 (77.6th percentile) to 154 (59.7th); a quarter of the new entering class has LSAT scores lower than those of the average test-taker."

"As for actual tuition revenues, Hofstra is notorious for giving “scholarships” to about two-thirds of students who matriculate — actually straight discounts on nominal tuition — that more than half of these recipients lose, because retention requires remaining in the top 40% of the class." "On the other hand, if Hofstra’s law school has, like so many other schools, engaged in profligate spending over the past few years while playing the rankings and prestige game, and was therefore only more or less breaking even or already running a deficit a couple of years ago, then . . . "

Citylaw

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2013, 01:25:44 AM »
These stats get so manipulated and posts like this give such an incorrect impression. Is it hard to start out as a lawyer? Yes.

Is Hofstra an amazing institution? No.

Will Hofstra teach you the law? Yes

The bottom with Hofstra or any law school or any form of education out there is that graduating is a minimum and a career lasts for a long time. In every form of education whether it be Business, Law, Engineering it is difficult to start out and law takes even more time because you cannot even work as an attorney until your bar results get released and assuming you pass the first time around, which many people do not you cannot work as an attorney.

The reality is that if you want to be a lawyer go to law school, but do not expect millions to be handed to you for graduating. Any ABA law school will provide you with a solid legal education and give you a chance to take the bar exam. If you pass the bar exam you will given a license to practice law and what you do with that license has a lot more to do with the individual than the name of the school on the degree.

I will agree that law school tuition is to high and if you attend school in a large market I.E. San Francisco or New York the expenses is even more than usual.

Bottom line is Hofstra some awful institution? No.

Is it overpriced? Probably

Can you have a successful legal career or Hofstra from any law school? Yes, but it is a lot more up to the individual than the law school they provide you with an education, but once your in the working world it is tough whether it be law or any other profession.

If there is some job that offers millions of dollars, offers complete job satisfaction, and the positions are just being handed out please let me any everyone else on this board know.


lrt8000

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 03:02:46 PM »
Paul Campos is the leading expert on the current law school crisis. What are your credentials?

Citylaw

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 01:53:52 PM »
Paul Campos is a law professor who rags on the law schools. If he was that much of a crusader for legal education and how awful why does he collect checks from an ABA law school?

He is not an expert just a guy trying to make some money and good for him. My credentials I will leave anonymous, but I have gone through law school and got hired as an attorney the day I got my successful bar results back. The majority of my classmates did as well and the bottom line is no matter what career you pursue it will be tough.

Paul Campos is a joke if he is such a great legal educator why doesn't he focus on teaching the students who are paying his salary at Colorado instead of writing books diminishing the legal profession. Individuals like Mr. Campos pretend to be crusaders, but are complete sellouts.


livinglegend

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 02:36:27 PM »
Yea Paul Campos I love how he critcizes professors not having any practical experience yet he didn't even last a year in the real world as an attorney.

Here is the Bio from Colorado Law School http://lawweb.colorado.edu/profiles/profile.jsp?id=10

Graduated from law school in 1989 then worked for a "Chicago Law Firm" doing what who knows and in less than a year this anonymous Chicago Firm where he can report nothing of he moved on to teach at Colorado in 1990.

Excellent Practical Experience Mr. Campos.

I am sure he is a fine professor, but he is the classic example of what he criticizes. An unseasoned attorney with on practical experience more focused on publishing and making money than preparing his students for a legal career, but maintaining a prestigious law professor position so he has a forum to get his books published.

lrt8000

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 02:37:32 PM »
Did you know that according to the latest ABA job placement statistics (for 2012), only 51.2% of Hofstra's graduates had long-term, full-time legal jobs? That means that 48.*% didn't. Almost half the graduating class [http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra&show=chars]  Is this acceptable? Did you know that 22.3% of Hofstra's 2012 were unemployed?  [http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra&show=chars] Is this acceptable? Did you know that Hofstra placed only 4.4% of its 2012 graduates in large firms? [http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra] Is this acceptable? Did you know that according to Law School Transparency Hofstra had a 35.8% underemployment score for 2012? {http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra] Is this acceptable?

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 02:50:54 PM »
Paul Campos is the leading expert on the current law school crisis.

According to who? Himself?

Campos is just a guy with a blog who states his opinion, like the rest of us. The fact that he is a law professor does not automatically confer greater legitimacy upon his opinion. His blog entries are not scholarly articles published in the Harvard Law Review, they are just his subjective opinions and are based on data which is available to all of us.

If we were talking about a point of law which was the subject of Campos's scholarly research, then I would defer to his expertise. But that's not the case here. A statement regarding Hofstra's "reason for being" should tip you off to the highly subjective nature of the article. The argument that Hofstra has abdicated it's purpose only makes sense if you accept Campos's criteria. I could make up my own criteria and come up with a different conclusion. Why does Campos get to decide what Hofstra's "reason for being" is? Shouldn't that be decided by the students and faculty of Hofstra?

The "crisis" is one of a generally bad economy rather than a law school-specific problem. When the economy was good, law schools like Hofstra had significantly better employment rates. As the economy improves (slowly), so will employment rates. I would agree with Campos that tuition at most law schools is ridiculously high, however, and should be significantly lowered.

Bottom line: be skeptical of inflammatory opinion pieces, use your common sense, and don't assume that someone is right just because they're a law prof. I recently graduated from law school in California, and have worked at both private and government law offices. I don't take people very seriously who have spent the last few years hunched over a computer blogging and collecting a paycheck from the state of Colorado.

livinglegend

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 03:37:19 PM »
LRT

These are just stats and yes there are unemployed attroneys out there, but there are plenty of employed ones as well. Believe it or not there are also unemployed M.B.A's, Teachers, Accountants etc

Here are a few articles that sound quite familar regarding other professions http://www.city-data.com/forum/work-employment/1004020-think-twice-before-you-get-accounting.html and http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124026550135236597 and http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10862429 a three second google search created that and I could find more legit articles, but the bottom line is no matter what career you go into starting out and succeeding is difficult there is no Golden Ticket out there.

As for Hofstra employment stats check back in five years and see what these people are doing. Additionally, these stats are very low quality since their majority of students do not keep in contact with their Alma Matters anywhere. I never filled out the "survey" for my law school so according to their stats I am unemployed, but I am not. I should have filled it out, but it has been years now and I never did. It is a voluntary survey and most people don't feel comfortable handing out salary information, personal details, etc and these surveys are completely voluntary there is no penalty for not filing them out and plenty of people don't

If your high school contacted you right now and asked for detailed information on everything you are doing would you take the time to fill it out? Maybe and I imagine 100% of your high school classmates would not fill it out and law schools run into the same problem.

There are jobs out there for lawyers from Hofstra or any other ABA school, but it is tough and if you turn into someone that bitches & moans about how unfair everything is you will not get a job. Life isn't fair and the legal profession is a very difficult and stressful profession and saying it is not fair all the time will not get you very far in it.

Paul Campos can have his opinions and I applaud his marketing ability he has probably made millions off all his publications, but I would not call him any sort of expert on anything other than marketing. Take his opinions for what they are, but I really don't respect a law professor in Colorado bashing a school in New York, which he has probably never even been too.

lrt8000

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 05:23:07 PM »
The stats I gave above are based on the stats that Hofstra reported to the ABA for the year 2012. You can find them on Law School Transparency. Only 3.9% of the 2012 graduates job statuses was unknow. So, you are wrong that the stats are low quality. Would you guess whether these 3.9% were employed or unemployed? My guess is that they were unemployed.

livinglegend

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Re: Paul Campos on Hofstra Law
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 08:31:17 PM »
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra&show=ABA

I never said the stats themselves were incorrect just measuring this many people with their own unique situations is difficult. Not to mention someone can be unemployed on Monday and get a job on Tuesday.

I don't take these statistics that seriously, If you want to look at the actual stats Hofstra had 363 Graduates 282 are employed. 2 are not seeking work, 11 are unknown, and 7 are pursuing graduate degrees. 61 of the 363 are unemployed and considering 71 students didn't pass the bar the first time I imagine a large part of those 61 consist of repeat bar takers.

Additionally, remember that law schools rank their students and half finish in the bottom half of the class and 25% of the class finish in the bottom 25%. If you finish at or near the bottom of your class and/or don't pass the bar the first time your employment prospects starting out will not be amazing, but you overcome a tough start and succeed in the profession, but it will take longer.

Just remember education is a long-term investment and what happens 9 months after graduation is not the end all be all of recent law school graduates.

Also just to throw Paul Campos under the bus one more time the school he is collecting paychecks from has almost the exact same Law School Transperncy score as Hofstra 51.2% v. 51.4% . http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=colorado v. http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hofstra .

The bottom line is Hofstra is an ABA law school the same as all the others. If you graduate and pass the bar you will be a licensed attorney. What you do with that license will have a lot more to do with you than the name of the school on your diploma.

I am not arguing Hofstra is same amazing institution, but it certainly doesn't deserve criticism from the likes of Paul Campos whose school is in the exact same situation as Hofstra.