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Author Topic: IU Maurer Ranks in 101st Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report  (Read 990 times)

lrt8000

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According to Dan Filler on the Faculty Lounge IU ranks 101st on the Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report (JD Required, FT, LT Minus Law School Funded). This puts it below Wayne State, Texas Southern, Ohio Northern, North Dakota.  See http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04/a-cleaner-ranking-of-schools-long-term-full-time-employment-minus-law-school-funded-jobs.html#more Other surprises on the list are Washington & Lee and Conn.

livinglegend

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Re: IU Maurer Ranks in 101st Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 12:31:59 AM »
This obsession with law school employment stats need to put to a stop at some point. Measuring how a law student is doing 9 months after graduation is ridiculous especially since there is no reporting requirement and not every person that attends law school is the same person. As I have mentioned in my class several girls not pregnant after graduation and did not take the bar exam until the following July. They were unemployed statistically, but they had planned pregnancies and wanted to be a mother first since the bar exam and legal jobs will always be there.

Still others came from wealth families and had no intention of every practicing law, others had 0 social skills, so on and so forth so to use some blanket statistic makes no sense. As a final point to this unlike other career fields such as when you graduate with a engineering degree there is no licensing exam you are ready to go. In the legal field you have to pass the bar to represent a client and you graduate in May take the bar in late July and results are released late October or Early November depening on the state.

This means you cannot even be licensed to practice law until 6 or 7 months after your graduation date whether you attended Harvard or Cooley if there is a job that requires bar passage you cannot be employed in that position until 6 or 7 months after graduation. When you get your license a week or two before Thanksgiving employers are not really looking to hire until January.

I can tell you when I graduated very few people except for myself got jobs in November, but almost every single one of my classmates got jobs in January assuming they passed the bar.

I just think these statistics are so misleading and paint such an untrue picture of the legal profession.

blue54

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Re: IU Maurer Ranks in 101st Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 11:18:08 AM »
LivingLegend: your argument would be valid if every school was suffering from low employment statistics on that chart.  However, it appears as if the University of Pennsylvania is strong at 91.85% of their students getting jobs after graduation, while Golden Gate University (the last mainland U.S. law school on this list) has a paltry 21.51% of their grads getting jobs within 9 months of graduation.  By the way, you don't have to be licensed to be hired, however, you must be licensed to practice law.  A firm can hire you contingent on bar passage.

"This means you cannot even be licensed to practice law until 6 or 7 months after your graduation date whether you attended Harvard or Cooley if there is a job that requires bar passage you cannot be employed in that position until 6 or 7 months after graduation. When you get your license a week or two before Thanksgiving employers are not really looking to hire until January."

Again, by this logic, and by reviewing the chart OP linked to, it appears that the employers Harvard grads found are, in fact, hiring before January, however, the employers Cooley grads found seem to take a bit longer to make their hiring decisions.  Now, do you think this is because Cooley grads are just finding the employers who insist on waiting beyond January to hire, and Harvard grads are finding firms that hire more quickly (thereby placing Cooley and Harvard grads on the same playing field when it comes to hire-ability)?  OR do you think it has something to do with the fact that schools ranked lower overall have worse employment statistics because their students are less attractive on the job market?

Let's take another example: It appears that the University of Michigan has an 81.70% employment rate 9 months out, and Detroit Mercy has a 29.72% hire rate.  These schools are only about 60 miles apart. As such, grads from both schools are applying to the same market (southeast Michigan).  So, do you think the fact that University of Michigan is a T14 school and Detroit Mercy is unranked has anything to do with these stats, or is it just that University of Michigan grads are somehow more adept at finding the firms with partners who before January, and Detroit Mercy grads find the firms that hire after January? Two schools, one ranked T14, the other unranked, in the same geographic location, with a large difference in employment stats.

"As I have mentioned in my class several girls not pregnant after graduation and did not take the bar exam until the following July. They were unemployed statistically, but they had planned pregnancies and wanted to be a mother first since the bar exam and legal jobs will always be there.

Still others came from wealth families and had no intention of every practicing law, others had 0 social skills, so on and so forth so to use some blanket statistic makes no sense."

Again, following your logic, does it seem likely that Detroit Mercy has a disproportionate amount of the students who became pregnant before passing the bar, or students with 0 social skills, or students who came from wealthy families (compared to the University of Michigan)?  After all, according to your logic, in addition to Detroit Mercy students finding the firms who are slower to hire, this would also account for poor employment statistics. 

So, it is either (1) the low ranked schools have a disproportionate amount of students who have 0 social skills, come from wealthy families, get pregnant etc. AND they find the firms that are slow to hire (irrespective of their school's ranking); or (2) higher ranked schools enjoy a much higher employment rate because of their ranking and quality of students.

I think employment statistics, while currently not as accurate as they should be, are incredibly vital to the legal profession, and every incoming 0L should be well versed as to which school will get them into a job the fastest.  It is clear that, generally, higher ranked schools will do this.  You have an 8/10 shot at getting a job right out of school coming from a T14, and you have a 2/10 shot coming from an unranked school.  You think this is is a ridiculous measurement?  I think this is essential to an informed student body. 

livinglegend

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Re: IU Maurer Ranks in 101st Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 12:13:37 PM »
I believe Harvard and Michigan are extreme examples and if you went to Harvard or Yale you have a different path. I also think many more individuals who are more likely to plan a pregnancy or be wealth with no intention of practicing law would attend Detroit Mercy than Harvard. Furthermore, Harvard and Michigan have far more extensive alumni networks and keep in touch with their alumni by providing more events, etc.

I am going to guess the Harvard 10 year law school reunion has far more attendance than the Detroit Mercy 10 year reunion. Many of the tier 3-4 schools are commuter schools with part-time students who go in and go out. Harvard and Michigan have no part-time program and attract the typical overachieving 22 year old right out of college who aspires to work at Cravath. Where as Detroit Mercy, Golden Gate, or those sort of schools appeal to older who have had careers and want a law degree to open their own firm, or achieve their law school dream, or appeal to spouses of rich people who want to say they went to law school, but have no intention of practicing law.

I think each school has a very different culture and Harvard and Michigan have the traditional law school route and student. All the information books for 0L's etc are written for people who want to attend Harvard, Yale, Michigan, but only 5% of law school applicants can get into the top 10 schools because there are 200 ABA schools. The statistical measurements for Harvard, Yale, Stanford, in their current state work for the other 90% of law students it doesn't in my opinion.