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lrt8000

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Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« on: May 12, 2013, 05:25:35 PM »
Hofstra has fallen from 89th to 113th in the 2014 US News & World Report Law School Rankings. Don't be surprised if Hofstra falls further next year as existing students transfer and potential applicants go elsewhere.

sts15

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 08:40:12 PM »
With the way the rankings work, Hofstra might gain back just as much next year...

Citylaw

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2013, 01:39:50 AM »
Could not agree more and here is a chart to show how ridiculous the rankings are. http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html Hofstra is a classic example in 2009 Hofstra was not in the top 100 in 2011 it rose to the amazing 11 way tie for 84th place, but promptly feel back to the bottom 100.

Remember that U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion. If you want to live your life by U.S. News rankings then you need to move to New Mexico since it is the #1 place to live case in point http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/slideshows/best-places-to-live .

However, New Mexico law school has also done quite the rise on fall #64 in 2009 dropping to #79, but it is on the rise again.

What changed at New Mexico, Hofstra or any of these schools? Nothing same professors etc, but U.S. News just pumps out the rankings as they should they make a lot of money of it, but it should not be the basis of a life altering decision such as choosing a law school

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 01:28:36 AM »
I honestly believe that the USNWR rankings scheme is one of the worst things that ever happened to legal education. Talk to an older lawyer and they'll tell you that law schools used to be viewed like medical schools are now: there were a handful of elite schools that were recognized as such (Harvard, Yale, etc.), but all ABA law schools were more or less considered "good schools". There wasn't any silly posturing over who was ranked 98 and who was ranked 77.

One of the worst aspects of this scheme is that it has caused people to focus so much on the particular rankings that they forget that the education at any ABA school is virtually identical to any other ABA school. A student at Hofstra will receive almost exactly the same education as a student at Berkeley. In fact, that is the entire point of ABA accreditation and why it is considered the gold standard for legal education.

Instead, this scheme focuses on very subjective and fluid criteria. The fact that a school can rise or fall 20 spots in a few years should give any intelligent person pause.

The rankings often give prospective students a totally false sense of a school's perceived strength or weakness. For example, a student who wants to live in L.A. might be tempted to go to law school at New Mexico because it's ranked higher than any local school to which they were admitted. They don't realize that regardless of rankings most schools won't really help you outside of their own geographic region, and you're probably better off going to a lower ranked local school.

As Citylaw said, do not make life decision based on this flawed, subjective system.   

Citylaw

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 02:21:50 AM »
Could not agree more and as an FYI if you want to know the standards used by U.S. News Rankings here they are

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2013/03/11/methodology-best-law-schools-rankings

40% of the rankings are based on lawyers and judges filling out scantrons ranking schools as 1 or 5. Who these lawyers and judges are is unidentified and I find it unlikely any lawyer or judge marking these Scranton visits each ABA law school every year.

Undergrad GPA makes up 10%, but again this just looks at the number so a 3.1 in Nuclear Physics from Harvard looks worse than a 4.0 in underwater Basket Weaving from Timbucktu State.

The LSAT makes up 12.5% and the test is by no means perfect, but at least this is an objective criteria and if U.S. News made this one of the standards I would have less of an issue, but it only makes up 12.5% and this is the one factor that can be objectively measured.

Acceptance Rate 2% and schools manipulate this to no degree offering fee waivers to people simply so they can reject them this is a tremendous waste of resources for everyone involved and I don't know how rejecting more applicants than another school improves the legal education at the institution.

Placement 20% that is not crazy, but again these numbers can be greatly manipulated and schools engage in number manipulation here as well. Additionally legal education is a long-term investment and a legal career lasts a lot longer than 9 months and these short time also puts schools in States that take longer to return bar exam results at a disadvantage. If they calculated it one year after bar results were released to put each school on level playing ground it would be a better system,but even then the person looking for a job has a lot more ability to get placed than the school can give them.

I know at my law school there were people I would not trust to feed my cat and would never want them to be my lawyer and they were others in my school that were highly competent. Unsurprisingly everyone I knew that was normal and competent found employment. The weird, smelly a-hole kid who missed half the classes and showed up 20 minutes late to the Final spends his time writing on Facebook about how awful the legal job market it, but the problem is him not the legal market.

Bar Passage Rate: 2% I would think being able to pass the licensing exam in a jurisdiction would be a pretty important indicator as to the quality of legal education, but the powers that be have made it the lowest weight factor. Literally if a school rejects more applicants than they will increase their ranking more than if they improve bar passage %

Rounding it up Faculty Resources 15%
I don't really have an issue with that the amount of books, student faculty ratio, etc means something and 15% is a reasonable number.

However, U.S. News doesn't care and shouldn't people buy the magazine blindly and make life altering decisions based on it and come away with a huge profit. I don't blame U.S. News for capitalizing on this market and that is why they rank Cities, Hospitals, or anything else they can turn a profit on. I don't think they are even imply there rankings are the Gold Standard they are offering their opinion the same as I am on this board, but nobody should make a life altering decision based on what I or U.S. News says.

Bottom line to any 0L's or 1L's considering transferring please do not make a life altering decision regarding your legal education on U.S. News opinion. Use your common sense obviously Harvard will open more doors than Wayne State, but no attorney out there cares if Wayne State is ranked higher than Williamette.

Stepping off Soap Box and again could not agree more with Maintain FL


lrt8000

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 06:48:03 PM »
Hofstra will definitely not be higher than 113th this year. and it will probably be lower.  Its entering LSAT fell from 157 last year to 154 this year, and its gpa fell from 3.26 to 3.14.

livinglegend

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 01:36:17 AM »
First GPA/LSAT make up only 22.5% of a school's ranking here is the U.S. News Methodology chart to prove it. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2013/03/11/methodology-best-law-schools-rankings  . So whether their GPA/LSAT falls or rises does not impact the rankings as much as you think. The real basis of the rankings is peer assessment, which is people filling out scantrons and that changes drastically year to year.

To prove that point look at the rankings chart you can see a number of schools with lower GPA/LSATs ranked higher. http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html Hofstra is actually ranked higher than UOP, Chapman, Maine even though it has a lower GPA/LSAT and you can see countless examples of that in the chart.



However, assume GPA/LSAT really did matter every school's admitting class went down substantially, because law school applications have gone down across the nation. The class of 2009 had record high applicants and therefore numbers due to the recession, but it everything is coming back to normal now.

Hofstra may rise or fall in the rankings, but again none of it really matters in the grand scheme of things. Hofstra is an ABA school and it will provide student's with a bar exam ticket, which is all Hofstra is required to do. As for perception Hofstra is mediocre school always has been and always will be. You can look at these numbers and magazines all you want, but they mean very little in the real world.

If you are an aspiring 0L I strongly encourage you to not take these numbers or magazines to heart they mislead many smart people into making life altering decisions that are not in their best interest.


lrt8000

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 12:54:25 PM »
You seemed to think you have it all figured out. We'll see who's right when the new us news rankings come out in April. My prediction: at best, Hofstra will remain where it is at 113, and it will probably drop, possibly into the unranked group.

livinglegend

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 11:29:02 PM »
I definitely do not claim to have U.S. News Ranking system figured out it nobody does it is the opinion of a magazine, which they are entitled to have. Hofstra could rise into the 70's or fall into the unranked assuming they have an unranked classification next year. They used to not count past 100 until 2011 and Hofstra couldn't have been 113th until last year, because U.S. News decided to change their system and why not it is their magazine they have the right to do whatver they want. 

Again, I have no absolutely no idea what a for-profit magazine's opinion of Hofstra will be next year nobody does. My point all along is you should not care what U.S. News Ranks Hofstra it is a magazine.

To reiterate my point here is a list of the top 250 IMDB movies. http://www.imdb.com/chart/top it is a list IMDB is more than entitled to offer an opinion, but I personally like Saving Private Ryan Ranked 37th a lot more than Inception ranked 16th. There is no right or wrong just my opinion and if I am going to choose to choose between watching those two movies the Private Ryan DVD is going in, but plenty of people like inception more. IMDB like U.S. News is offering an opinion you are entitled to take it or leave it, but I would not encourage anyone to let a magazine's opinion be the basis of 3 year, $100,000+, career and life altering decision, but that is just me.

Again, I have no idea what Hofstra will be ranked next year nor do I care. Hofstra is a decent school in the New York Market nothing more nothing less it will never have the same prestige as Columbia, NYU, Harvard or Yale and U.S. News didn't need to rank the schools to let me know those institutions open more doors I imagine you didn't either.

Think what you want about Hofstra and treat U.S. News as gospel you have the right to take it as seriously as you want my point is that it is only a magazine nothing more



lrt8000

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Re: Hofstra falls 113th in US News
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 12:45:02 AM »
Sorry Citylaw, but you are reading the chart wrong again. 15% of the rankings are based on lawyers and judges. And Livinglegend, us news had rankings above 100 long before 2011.