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Author Topic: Drexel or Loyola LA  (Read 1552 times)

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 03:03:55 PM »
One other factor that has to be taken into account when evaluating employment statistics:

My law school, like many law schools with large part time/evening programs, had a significant number of people who graduated in December. The employment surveys for the December grads were collected in February, at the same time as the May grads. Most (if not all) of the December grads spent December, January, and February studying for the February bar as opposed to looking for a job. Their post grad employment data, however, gets counted with the previous academic year in which they graduated.

Considering that only two and a half months pass between graduation and data collection, this could significantly affect the statistics for the entire year's graduating class.   

jack24

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Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 11:19:28 AM »
One other factor that has to be taken into account when evaluating employment statistics:

My law school, like many law schools with large part time/evening programs, had a significant number of people who graduated in December. The employment surveys for the December grads were collected in February, at the same time as the May grads. Most (if not all) of the December grads spent December, January, and February studying for the February bar as opposed to looking for a job. Their post grad employment data, however, gets counted with the previous academic year in which they graduated.

Considering that only two and a half months pass between graduation and data collection, this could significantly affect the statistics for the entire year's graduating class.   

What is your point?  Are you just arguing that it may not be as bad as law school transparency says?   Okay, maybe it's not.  But you know what else the employment statistics don't reflect?  The number of attorneys who leave the law after two years and the number of attorneys who live paycheck to paycheck and the number of attorneys who hate their jobs. 

If you look at the data, it's pretty harrowing.    Enrollment in law schools has finally started to drop.  While this is fantastic news, the legal picture is still brutal.   The industry isn't really growing.  It shed 2,400 jobs in january of 2013. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/legal_industry_loses_2400_jobs_in_january

The BLS estimates that the legal industry will add about 7,000 new lawyer jobs per year over the next ten years.   Unfortunately, we have been added about 53,000 newly licensed attorneys in 2009.   40 years ago, there were only 16,000 law grads per year.   So even if we estimate that 80% still practice law, that means that retirements are only leading to about 12,800 open spots per year (if they are actually retiring, and if their work isn't just being absorbed by their firms).   

It's reasonable to assume that we need less than 25,000 new lawyers each year until the boomer lawyers really start to retire.   In the 2011-2012 cycle, there were 44,366 who enrolled at ABA ranked schools. 

Look at this lawyer surplus analysis by state.  The chart is interesting. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/the-lawyer-surplus-state-by-state/

Do you really think the ABA's employment estimate, that only 55% of ABA grads have full-time legal work is that far off? 

This is an absolutely brutal time to go to a T3, but at least enrollments are dropping.   Hopefully more lawyers will retire in the next decade.  But computers and machines will probably take up the slack.


Maintain FL 350

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Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 12:37:35 PM »
What is your point?  Are you just arguing that it may not be as bad as law school transparency says?   

Yes, that is my only point and nothing more (or less) should be read into it. Employment statistics, like all raw data, should be viewed critically and within context. I come from a scientific background, and learned a long time ago that your final results are only as accurate as the data you collect. It's difficult to account for all variables, but this particular variable might affect the accuracy of the results. That's all.

My broader point, and the reason I responded to Anti's claim, is that the purpose of the data can be misunderstood. The numbers are based on voluntary self-reporting nine months after graduation. As far as I know, the numbers are not subsequently revised to reflect those who obtain employment after the reporting date.

This leads me to believe that the statistics are not designed to provide a platform upon which future projections of employabilty can be divined. Absent some evidence to the contrary, these numbers appear to have limited durational value and their accuracy probably diminishes the farther you get from the reporting date. This is not a flaw in the model. It's simply not intended to produce long term prognostications.

The statistics are accurate as far as they reflect the employment of participating graduates at that point in time. That is, X% of reporting grads were employed/unemployed at the time they voluntarily responded, period. But people should make an effort to understand the purpose, methodology, and inherent limitations of data collection before attempting to extrapolate these results beyond their intended parameters. It's a huge mistake to do so.

For example, if School X has a nine month employment rate of 50%, that does not mean that you automatically have a 50% chance of ever becoming a lawyer if you attend that school. No model can account for the personal attributes that greatly affect an individual's probability of securing employment. Some people have a 100% chance because they're brilliant and personable, and others have a 0% chance because they're immature fools. By making such claims, one is attributing characteristics to the model which it was never intended to address. Such conclusions will almost always be wrong.

As far as the overall employment outlook, I agree with you, Jack. It's bad, especially for those who have just graduated and are looking for their first job. I graduated from a non-prestigious law school in the state with the worst legal employment market (CA) within the last couple of years. Trust me, I don't need anyone to tell me how bad the market is. I also know, however, that those who continue to develop their skills and connections after law school, are willing to be flexible, and don't waste time pursuing jobs for which they're unqualified stand a good chance of eventually finding employment. 

   

livinglegend

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Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2013, 11:49:10 PM »
Getting back to my update

First off as I always say remember that everyone posting on this board or others is nothing more than an anonymous internet poster that knows nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you so take anything you read with a grain of salt. Particularly when you consider that anyone can post on this board and claim to be whoever they want I could say I am the Dean of Harvard Law School, a Big Law Partner, a law student, etc I or anyone else can claim to be anything and whatever bad advice or lies I tell will not result in any sort of repercussion against me. Therefore I cannot stress enough the importance of taking all advice mine included on boards such as this with a major grain of salt.

With that piece of information I will give the following advice, which I think is helpful for OL's when choosing a law school. I believe any OL should base their decision on the following factors in this order (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the school (4) The Reality of Legal Education (5) Lastly and truly lastly U.S. News rankings. I will analyze these reasons below.

1. Location
Realize that law school does not exist in a vacuum although you will be busy in law school life still happens. From your post it sounds like you do not know a soul in Los Angeles other than your boyfriend who may or may not end up moving out to California with you.

Therefore, you are going to be in an all new City in law school away from your family and there is a high likelihood your boyfriend may not end up moving out with you and there is a potential for dealing with a breakup, in a new city, away from everything you know, and dealing with the high stress of 1L. Some people can handle that, but others cannot you know yourself far better than I do.

Then it is also possible your boyfriend will move out with you, but if he does he will find a job and it will be unlikely you will ever leave L.A. During three years of law school assuming you stay together he will build a career that will be difficult to leave, you will make connections in L.A, get an apartment, make friends, etc. In the end you will probably not move back to Philadelphia, which if family is important to you is something to consider.

On top of the Los Angeles and Philadelphia are very different cities. I am from L.A. and have been to Philly a few times for one thing you will need a car if your living in L.A. can you afford that on law school loans? I don't know maybe your parents will help or your boyfriend has money saved up you know the situation better than I do.

On top of that really consider your relationship with your boyfriend how important is that to you? I saw plenty of people in my 1L think they could manage the long-distance relationship during 1L, but it almost never worked out. If this is a serious relationship just realistically think how it will work out. Your boyfriend will be moving to L.A. I don't know if he has a job now or something waiting for him in L.A, but when push comes to shove will he really leave everything in Philadelphia behind to follow you across the country for you to attend law school and him to struggle to find a job in the highly competitive marketplace that is L.A?

As for your uncle's advice he is right if you attend any law school you will not be stuck in a market, but the reality is if your in L.A. you will take the California Bar and get a job in L.A. you will be busy and you will probably never getting around to taking the Pennsylvania Bar and even if you do it will be very difficult to find employment across country when there are numerous schools in Pennsylvania already why would they fly someone out from L.A? Conversely why would someone in L.A. want to hire someone from Philadelphia when there are 7 law schools in L.A. already. Maybe if you were attending Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or a school of that caliber cross-country recruiting would make sense, but an L.A. firm is not looking to hire Drexel Grads and a Philadelphia firm is not looking to hire Chapman grads.

Just really consider the realities of location when choosing your school particularly when moving cross country I cannot stress how important this is.

2. Cost
You mentioned scholarships and that is great, but what are the conditions attached to them? Often times a law school will say maintain a 3.0 to keep your scholarship and most OL's naively believe it will be a cakewalk to get a 3.0, but that is NOT how it works. Law school grading is much different and the curve is strict generally only 35% of the class can have a 3.0 and I know like 100% of OL's you will believe your special and will certainly be in the top 35%, but in law school everyone is smart, hard-working, and motivated so there is a 65% chance you will not be in the top 35% and lose your scholarship for year 2 and 3. I think this NY times article does a good job explaining the conditions. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

3 Personal Feelings About School

This is important and it sounds like you are visiting the campuses to get a feel for the schools. As you have probably noticed the culture of schools feel a little different I know when I was a OL there were some schools that felt like a fit and others that didn't. These were my own personal feelings though for example I really liked Chapman and Pepperdine, but didn't like LMU. This was my own personal opinon and you may have felt the opposite I like the smaller towns of Malibu and Orange opposed to being in the heart of L.A. I also loved the beach view of Pepperdine and I could go on and on, but it is important to realize I am NOT you. Just because I liked Pepperdine doesn't mean you will. I know it is a religious school and maybe your atheist, maybe you have very sensitive skin and the malibu sun will burn you alive, the list goes on and on so it is very important to feel out these schools talk to professors, admins, and see what school feels right. Remember this is a life altering decision and opposed to letting internet posters tell you what is good for you consider your own experiences it is you who will be living with the decision and nobody knows better than you what works best for yourself.

4. Reality of Legal Education
I will let you in on a secret the reality is all legal education is the same. Your first year at any ABA school will consist of torts, civil procedure, contracts, property, and criminal law. They may offer criminal procedure or con law in year 2 or move one of the other classes to year 1. You will also take Evidence, Wills & Trusts, Corporations, Remedies, in your later years.

The reality is the law is the same in your first year you will read Palsgarff in Torts and Justice Cardozo in the 1930's didn't write separate opinions for each law school.  Instead proximte cause is established, which every lawyer nation wide knows about. In Civil Procedure you will read Pennoyver v. Neff again the court in the 1800's didn't write a separate opinion for different caliber law schools instead the notice requirement is established.  So there really isn't a "better education" there may be some professors that are more engaging than others, but the reality is you will do most of the studying and be learning the law through supplemental resources like Barbri, Emmaneul's Outlines, etc.

This is why it is so important to consider location, cost, and personal feelings about the school as these will make far more of a difference than alleged difference in the quality of education. If you are homesick in L.A. after breaking up with your boyfriend in a school you are uncomfortable with the most lively professor won't be able to knock negligence into your head.

5. U.S. News Ranking
Realize that this is a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion and should NOT be the basis of a life altering decision. They also rank more than law schools for example New Mexico is the #1 place to live (link) http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009

Are you going to move to New Mexico because U.S. News says so? I hope not although there are likely some great reasons for their ranking packing your bags solely because U.S. News ranked something #1 doesn't make a lot of sense, but for some reason law students literally make life altering decisions and attend law schools based on this magazine DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. If this were U Penn v. Chapman then rankings might make a difference, but nobody cares about the difference between Chapman and Drexel in the rankings they are both fine schools, but Chapman is probably 90th and Drexel 105th nobody cares at that point.

Conclusion:
This is literally a life altering decision particularly whether you move across country or not. Law school is difficult and if you are person that can pop into a new area and make friends easily then L.A. might be a great fit. Conversely if you are a shy reserved person that is very concerned about maintaining your relationshp with your family and boyfriend then L.A. might end up being a disaster. I don't know you and neither does anyone else offering advice anonymously on the internet so really consider all your personal attributes and what you want as you know better than anyone else.

The education for all intensive purposes is the same and not worth your personal happiness whether you attend Drexel, Chapman, Loyola, or Pepperdine you will learn the same exact thing then take Barbri when you graduate and hope to pass the bar. Good luck whatever you decide.