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Author Topic: Depaul or Loyola chicago  (Read 1507 times)

law90

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Depaul or Loyola chicago
« on: February 28, 2013, 02:25:56 PM »
Depaul is offering me 60,000 in scholarships and Loyola is offering nothing. Is there a big enough difference between the two that I should consider leaving the money and going to Loyola? I know that it is always better to go to a higher ranked school, however, Loyola is only 20 spots higher. Just wondering what other peoples opinions are.

Thanks

Anti09

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 06:11:56 PM »
Loyola is not worth $60,000 more, but neither school is worth what you would be paying.  You should seriously reconsider the notion of attending a schools that only place 40-50% of their class into full time legal jobs.

Loyola: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=loyola-chicago&show=chars

Depaul: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=depaul&show=chars

livinglegend

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2013, 03:17:32 AM »
Before you read my post realize that anyone posting on this board or others is nothing more than an anonymous internet poster that knows nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you. Whether you attend law school and where you attend it will be a life altering decision and therefore your best bet is to talk to people with direct experience from the school. Any information you receive on internet boards is far from credible and for all you know I could be a bum in a library posting all it takes to post on this board is an internet connection so please take all advice from internet boards with a major grain of salt.

Anti is correct that you should not spend 60,000 more to attend a higher ranked school. Remember U.S. News is nothing more than a magazine offering an opinion and you should not make a 3 year 100,000 life altering decision based on what they think. Remember U.S. News ranks more than law schools for example they claim Alberqueue, NM is the best place to live right now http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 .

Are you going to move to New Mexico because U.S. News says so? I imagine not and your choice of law school should be no different. I strongly encourage anyone going to law school to use their common sense and not have a for profit unregulated magazines opinion be the basis of a life altering decision. 

What you should do is visit both schools the culture well be different and see which one suits you better. You will be spending 3 years of your life there make sure you can stand it during a visit. When I was a 0L I visited several different schools and some I liked others I hated, but that doesn't mean we will have the same opinions. This is your life so make sure to visit the schools and see what fits you.

As for the scholarship what are the conditions on it. Often a law school will require you to maintain a 3.0 or maintain some sort of class rank. I know as a OL you truly think you will easily get a 3.0, but the law school curve only allows 35% of people typically to have a 3.0. This is nothing against you, but there is a 65% chance you will not be in the top 35% so if that is the requirement for the scholasrhip don't make it the basis of your decision, because there is a good chance it will be gone for years 2 and 3.

Another thing to realize is that legal education is exactly the same at ABA schools. Your first year will consist of torts, contracts, civil procedure, etc. You will read Supreme Court Cases like Pennoyer v. Neff in Civ Pro, Palsgraff in Torts, etc. The Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for different law schools what you learn is literally the same whether you are at Depaul or Chicago so I really don't know how U.S. News determines Loyola is 67 this year and Depaul is 87 this year. I actually do know the forumula it makes no sense and as you can see from this chart schools change drastically year by year Depaul was ranked higher than Loyola in 2009. I assure you nothing changed at either school and a 0L in 2009 that chose Depaul based on rank is now saying WTF Loyola is now higher. I just cannot stress enough do not make a life altering decision based on a magazine.

If this were University of Chicago v. Depaul then consider it, but nobodoy cares about the difference between 67 and 87.

As for Anti's crusade to use Law School Transparency please remember these are far from accurate. First off having gone to law school I can tell you many people have no desire to become lawyers. I knew numerous people who did joint MBA/JD programs and went into business, others did JD/Clinical Psychology Degrees, there were numerous others that were insanely rich and just went to law school for the experience, then there were numerous others that did not pass the bar, and then with the ones that did pass the bar and wanted to become lawyers many of them did not report their information, because it is not required to do so . Therefore, this statistics are highly flawed.

With that said the legal market is tough and neither of these schools will guarantee you a job, but I don't know of any profession or educational institution that guarantees you a job at graduation other than West point and Annapolis. If you really want to be a lawyer then I encourage you to attend law school and see, which of these two schools is a fit for you. Do not make U.S. News the sole basis of a life altering decision. Good luck should you pursue a legal career.


law90

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »
Yea i am not considering law school all together. I'm fully aware of the job market but i am still confident i can find a good job. As for the scholarship, there is actually no gpa requirment so i cannot lose it no matter what happens.

law90

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2013, 10:59:06 AM »
Sorry meant to say that i am not considering skipping law school. Please do not reply here and tell me how bad the job market is and that i shouldnt put myself in that kind of debt. I've done the research i am fully aware of the risk and understand how the job market is, i asked which school i should choose between the two so telling me to not go to law school is pointless.

Anti09

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2013, 11:52:29 AM »
I'm not saying don't go to law school.  I'm saying don't go to these law schools without a significant scholarship.  Sit down and do the finances and you will see that paying back $200k+ in loans is literally impossible on a $40-60k salary, which is what you are all but guaranteed to make upon graduation (if you get a job at all). 

http://www.nalp.org/salarycurve_classof2011

LivingLegend's post is intended to put doubt in your mind as to the reliability of these statistics.  Do not fall for it.  These statistics are the most accurate representation of the legal market that we have.  Ask yourself which holds more weight in your mind: Actual statistical surveys of graduated students, or the rambling of some anonymous guy on the internet?  (Note: that includes me.) 

Look at the statistics.  Do the finances.  Make a smart decision, and realize that every dollar of loans you take it is non-dischargeable. 

jack24

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2013, 12:34:15 PM »
Sorry meant to say that i am not considering skipping law school. Please do not reply here and tell me how bad the job market is and that i shouldnt put myself in that kind of debt. I've done the research i am fully aware of the risk and understand how the job market is, i asked which school i should choose between the two so telling me to not go to law school is pointless.

Law90:

I thought I knew all the risks and I thought I did all the research.   I still have my spreadsheet of law schools that contains 26 different weighted categories.  I didn't know what I was getting in to.   I mean, I did the financial analysis.  About 95,000 in debt would equal annual payments of about $7,700.   So in my mind, the only financial decision was whether, over the next 25 years, my salary as a law grad would be an average of $7,700 more that it would have otherwise been.   I looked at the chart that Anti posted above http://www.nalp.org/salarycurve_classof2011 and I figured I could certainly start out at $65,000 or more, so it made sense for me to leave my banking career and go to law school.  It turns out my two year legal career pays just about what I was making before law school, but I still think the investment will pay off for me in the long run.

Those of us who discourage individuals like yourself from going to law school, don't mean to say that you can't make a decision.  We just want to make sure that you have all of the information.   If you do, then go ahead and ignore us.  But I think Anti and I, though we don't agree on everything, will continue to make sure that prospective students are exposed to the data. 

I know that ABA law schools are churning out 40,000+ new lawyers every year, while the industry is only creating 9000 jobs and only about 15,000 people are retiring per year.  More will start to retire in the coming decade.

I also know that there are about seven broad types of law,  Transactional Business/corporate, Transactional Other,  Criminal, Domestic, IP,  corporate litigation, commercial litigation. (Not exhaustive, but most things fit in one of those)
And then there are about 9 types of legal employers.  Municipalities, Courts, Counties and States, Feds, Solos, Small Firms, Medium Firms, Large Firms, and Big Law.

Some quick conditional math tells me that the above create about 47 fairly unique combinations.    For me, I think I would enjoy either the power of being a solo, or the structure of working for a large firm.  The in between, those small and poorly run organizations, are hell.    I have worked for judges, counties, small firms, solos, and one medium firm.  Each experience was wildly different.    In my view, going to law school is fine, but it's a bit of a roulette wheel.    Most people have no idea where they will end up.   Those who desire to work in IP, Tax, Family, or Criminal have a higher chance of landing in the area they want, but they will have no idea what type of organization they will end up in.

law90

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2013, 12:48:11 PM »
I understand and respect eveything both of you are saying and I dont mean to sound like i am ignoring you. However, I am set on going to law school. I am fortunate because i have someone who i believe can get me a job at a law firm that i am presently working at as an assistant, granted that i do very well in law school. Because of that I think i find myself in a little different situation then most.

law90

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 01:05:05 PM »
The reason i was asking what school i should go to is because nothing in life is guaranteed, so i understand that the law firm job may not work out and in that case i wanted to know which school would give me a better opportunity to succeed.

Anti09

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Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 04:01:11 PM »
I understand and respect eveything both of you are saying and I dont mean to sound like i am ignoring you. However, I am set on going to law school. I am fortunate because i have someone who i believe can get me a job at a law firm that i am presently working at as an assistant, granted that i do very well in law school. Because of that I think i find myself in a little different situation then most.

Unless he can give you an offer in writing, you should never assume a job will be waiting for you.  Things always change.  They might find they don't have space for you, or the firm might encounter financial hardships and close up shop, or (most likely) you may find you don't do as well in law school as you planned.  Everybody who goes to law school plans to work hard and get great grades.  But hard work is only one part of the story.  Law school classes are graded on a forced curve, and it's all but impossible to predict your grades because you don't know how your classmates will do.  You should always look at your potential employment opportunities if you graduated at median, because that is statistically where you are most likely to end up. 

Quote
The reason i was asking what school i should go to is because nothing in life is guaranteed, so i understand that the law firm job may not work out and in that case i wanted to know which school would give me a better opportunity to succeed.

Sadly, neither.  If you don't get a job working as a lawyer, your degrees from either of these schools is functionally worthless.  Very, very few non-lawyer jobs require (or even prefer) a JD candidate, and there are a vast category of jobs which will exclude you from consideration on the basis of being overqualified.  Nobody wants to hire someone with a JD for a non-lawyer job because they will assume that:

1) You will leave them for a lawyer job at the first opportunity, or
2) Your qualification obliges the employer to pay you more for the same amount of work (as with teaching jobs), or
3) That there is a reason you couldn't find a job as a lawyer, and you are a bad worker / have a bad personality / are incompetent, etc.

In short, the notion that a JD is a versatile degree is a long-discredited myth.  If you don't want to work as a lawyer, or cannot obtain a job as a lawyer, your options are extremely limited. 

Again, I am not advising you not to attend law school.  I am simply advising you to sit down and crunch the numbers yourself.  If you do, it will become quickly apparent that attending either school, at the prices you would be paying, is financial suicide even if you are lucky enough to find a job.  If you are intent on attending either of these schools, you should re-take the LSAT to increase your scholarship and ideally attend for free.  The maximum you should be paying (total cost of attendance, including living expenses, for all three years) should be roughly $60,000, since that is the maximum you will be paid upon graduation.