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Author Topic: Northwestern California University, School of Law.  (Read 21136 times)

legend

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2012, 07:07:41 PM »
This is just an anonymous internet poster opinion, but I am assuming the school Cher1300 is referring to Western State in L.A. where the competition is much stiffer and you will be in competition with Harvard, UCLA, USC, etc grads and an online law school won't cut in that location.

California is a massive state and if you were in one of the rural towns of Northern California simply being licensed in California would be enough. I was offered a solid paying job offer in a fairly large firm in Fresno it paid more than I am currently making, but I could live not in Fresno. I visited I thought about it and I just can't do it. I imagine it works for some, but many people do not want to live in Central or really Northern California. At the Fresno Firm there were Boalt & CBE grads working side by side their. What they really wanted was a law license, a desire to live in Fresno, and common sense. I imagine the same is true in some of the more rural northern counties in California.

From my limited experience and as an anonymous internet poster if you want to live in a Big-City and be a lawyer the competition will be intense for any position and I imagine that is true of any profession period. If you move to some small town of 4,000 people there likely is one or two lawyers in the whole town if any and all you would need is a license.

Nor-Cal I imagine you still in when of the more rural northern California counties and therefore a Local CBE school or Online School would probably serve you well if your intent on remaining in that location. If you plan on moving to L.A after it will be a tough go.

Again only my anonymous internet poster opinion take it for what it is worth.

jennid1234

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 07:47:06 PM »
More than 40 percent of Concord's graduates have already earned a graduate degree, including nine MBA, five Ph.D., and four MD degree holders. These accomplished professionals included small business owners, college professors, a surgeon and an engineer who was in Afghanistan serving in the Army Reserves for much of his third year of law school (a quote from A. Miller at the 2010 graduation ceremony).

For those of you that think the online is not the way to go, I beg to differ.  I have had attorneys tell me they wish they had the opportunity and the smaller loan bill.  I have had hiring partners tell me they don't care if the school is ABA, don't care about GPA's, if you go to a school, pass the Cal Bar and you have a brain for presenting yourself on paper, you'll land that interview and become an attorney.  I choose not to waste money that I could spend on better things than some school that gives me the same opportunity to sit for the BAR exam.  Lastly, I know for a fact that the brick and mortar NON ABA accredited school in Chico has produced at least two DEPUTY DA's for Butte county.  Those that discriminate about whether a school is ABA or not ABA don't want change and are not prepared for the next step, schools that are online are more efficient and can give the SAME education with out the high education expense costing our country and our citizens. California is doing a fabulous job of turning out some pretty darn good lawyers from nonABA schools and to say that you better go to an ABA if you want to be a Deputy DA is hogwash.. 

The first lecturer for Concord in 1998 was Arthur Miller a well known professor from Harvard Law School!  I love his civil procedure lectures and my degree, my education and my future career as a lawyer may very well be better than most brick and mortar schools because of the lecturers that are at my school.

Lastly,  if you work in a law office ANYWHERE and want to go another route, 2 years of college course work, under instruction of an attorney you can become eligible to sit for the FYLSE and every 6 months submit the required report to the CA bar. After Passing the FYLSE and completing the study requirements a person may sit for the Bar Exam and upon Passing the BAR without EVERY having gone to ANY law school or correspondence program that person can become a lawyer.  Just think, just the cost of time and expense of books!  Sounds like Abe Lincoln, except he did his studies in a log cabin. 

http://rules.calbar.ca.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=-2KV5j0w6Cw%3d&tabid=1227

Oh and if you think large law firms don't look at our resumes, think again!  They are looking at all and will even offer internships to those they feel are qualified to join their staff.  I work for on of the largest law firms in the NW and they don't descriminate, most law firms don't.  Only a few attorneys say that they wouldn't hire someone from an online program so they can see their name in the paper.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2012/06/07/online-law-degrees-face-hung-jury

http://www.usatodayeducate.com/staging/index.php/blog/is-your-45000-a-year-degree-is-getting-the-last-laugh

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/LawArticle.jsp?id=1202425745957&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1

The last article is the best, Heather Brown graduated, passed the bar and is a long beach prosecutor!  ONLINE ROCKS


jonlevy

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2012, 10:07:37 AM »
Washington Post  is the parent company of Concord and Kaplan and does a very good job at PR that much is clear.  However, it is unrealistic to think that online grads are going to be able to compete in the job market.  They are limited to a California license which would disqualify them from most if not all big law jobs.  Most federal and state government job descriptions require an ABA degree.  As for Butte County, LOL, if you are willing to go to Oroville or Del Norte or Modoc counties anything is possible.  Del Norte let me do Pelican Bay PD cases within a few months of passing the bar with a Taft degree but that was the good old days.  However, the current DA of Del Norte is a former meth addict, has been suspended from the bar in the past and is facing disbarment proceedings, so anything is possible there.  The previous DA is also facing drug charges

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/18/48476.htm

http://www.times-standard.com/localnews/ci_20888756/trial-dates-set-state-bar-case-against-del

The point is that an online law degree can work but it is not a good way to get a job hire in law.  Concord is one of the best online schools but even all the honors in the world there will produce an attorney who is at a handicap in the job market.

Are online grads better, I like to think so, but in reality they are just different and employers don't like non conformists.  A Uriah Heep with an ABA degree from a  tirr one or two school will get the job not the online grad.


Maintain FL 350

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2012, 11:28:46 AM »

Why do these issues always have to get framed in the most extreme terms?

An ABA degree is not the only path to success, that is evidenced by the thousands of non-ABA attorneys practicing in CA. However, in terms of getting hired as a DA/PD, you have to understand how much things have changed since 2008. Yes, there are non-ABA DAs working in just about every county in the state. Those people are great, experienced attorneys who do a great job. Many of them were hired years ago, when DA/PD jobs weren't paying very well and it was hard to attract top ABA grads. That simply isn't the case anymore. Two major events changed the level of competition for those jobs: First, they started to pay a lot better and offered great benefits. Second, the economy imploded. DA/PD jobs are now highly sought after, and the local offices are receiving resumes from people who would never have applied for a government job 10 or 15 years ago.

Please understand that I am not making this up, the objectively verifiable evidence is out there if you want to find it.

Does that mean that a non-ABA grad can't get hired? No, of course not, but it's one more hurdle that the applicant will have to overcome. The school you referred to in Chico, California Northern, is CBE accredited. There is a big difference between CBE accredited and unaccredited in the eyes of many employers.

For anyone who doubts me, don't take my word for it. Go to Calbar's website and use the advanced search function to look up various DAs offices.  See how many new hires are ABA grads, how many are CBE, and how many are unaccredited. I took a look at a few rural counties in northern CA, the kind of place I figured would be more likely to hire non-ABA grads. Of the DAs hired since 2000, nearly every single one was an ABA grad. There were a handful of CBE, and zero online. In the more populated counties it was 100% ABA across the board. Now, if you go back 20 years or so you'll see a lot more CBE grads at those offices, but that's not reflective of what hiring is like now.

I don't doubt that someone can get a great education outside of the ABA scheme, in fact I'm highly critical of the ABA for lots of reasons. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have huge respect for online grads who pass the CA bar. But if you're going to say that it's "hogwash" that an ABA degree is required to get a job as a DA, back it up with some evidence.

I'm not necessarily a fan of the current system, but to deny it's existence is counterproductive.

legend

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »
I doubt there is any ill intent, but you probably should not  put individuals names i.e. the prosecutor on this board without their consent they might not appreciate being dragged into this debate unknowingly and having their name pop up in a google search.


Maintain FL 350

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 12:22:00 PM »
Good point.

jonlevy

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2012, 01:04:49 PM »
I think Concord's marketing practices may be the issue.  Unlike the other distance learning law schools, Concord has a big PR budget.  They have to trumpet something.  I always found amusing their press releases about how their grads were the first "online" students admitted to the US Supreme Court Bar when any attorney with 5 years practice who has a clean record and can get two USSC bar members to nominate him or her is guaranteed admission. And you are correct there is a world of difference between CBA school and an unaccredited distance learning school.

Despite all the blather, Concord is registered with the Cal bar just like Taft or any other distance learning school.

http://info.concordlawschool.edu/pages/accreditation.aspx

Now if Concord had California Bar accredidation that would be something.

jonlevy

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2012, 01:15:38 PM »
I doubt there is any ill intent, but you probably should not  put individuals names i.e. the prosecutor on this board without their consent they might not appreciate being dragged into this debate unknowingly and having their name pop up in a google search.

A Prosecutor is a public official and the links are to news stories.  Their stories are germaine in that one would not necessarily want to sweat out 4 years of  law school and then try to get a job in those high risk podunk counties even if one could. They play for keeps in those places, this is nothing new. Anyone who has worked in a small rural California county could tell worse stories.

Cher1300

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 01:40:41 PM »
More than 40 percent of Concord's graduates have already earned a graduate degree, including nine MBA, five Ph.D., and four MD degree holders. These accomplished professionals included small business owners, college professors, a surgeon and an engineer who was in Afghanistan serving in the Army Reserves for much of his third year of law school (a quote from A. Miller at the 2010 graduation ceremony).

For those of you that think the online is not the way to go, I beg to differ.  I have had attorneys tell me they wish they had the opportunity and the smaller loan bill.  I have had hiring partners tell me they don't care if the school is ABA, don't care about GPA's, if you go to a school, pass the Cal Bar and you have a brain for presenting yourself on paper, you'll land that interview and become an attorney.  I choose not to waste money that I could spend on better things than some school that gives me the same opportunity to sit for the BAR exam.  Lastly, I know for a fact that the brick and mortar NON ABA accredited school in Chico has produced at least two DEPUTY DA's for Butte county.  Those that discriminate about whether a school is ABA or not ABA don't want change and are not prepared for the next step, schools that are online are more efficient and can give the SAME education with out the high education expense costing our country and our citizens. California is doing a fabulous job of turning out some pretty darn good lawyers from nonABA schools and to say that you better go to an ABA if you want to be a Deputy DA is hogwash.. 

The first lecturer for Concord in 1998 was Arthur Miller a well known professor from Harvard Law School!  I love his civil procedure lectures and my degree, my education and my future career as a lawyer may very well be better than most brick and mortar schools because of the lecturers that are at my school.

Lastly,  if you work in a law office ANYWHERE and want to go another route, 2 years of college course work, under instruction of an attorney you can become eligible to sit for the FYLSE and every 6 months submit the required report to the CA bar. After Passing the FYLSE and completing the study requirements a person may sit for the Bar Exam and upon Passing the BAR without EVERY having gone to ANY law school or correspondence program that person can become a lawyer.  Just think, just the cost of time and expense of books!  Sounds like Abe Lincoln, except he did his studies in a log cabin. 

http://rules.calbar.ca.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=-2KV5j0w6Cw%3d&tabid=1227

Oh and if you think large law firms don't look at our resumes, think again!  They are looking at all and will even offer internships to those they feel are qualified to join their staff.  I work for on of the largest law firms in the NW and they don't descriminate, most law firms don't.  Only a few attorneys say that they wouldn't hire someone from an online program so they can see their name in the paper.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2012/06/07/online-law-degrees-face-hung-jury

http://www.usatodayeducate.com/staging/index.php/blog/is-your-45000-a-year-degree-is-getting-the-last-laugh

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/LawArticle.jsp?id=1202425745957&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1

The last article is the best, Heather Brown graduated, passed the bar and is a long beach prosecutor!  ONLINE ROCKS

I don't think anyone is saying online or non ABA can't be done.  Just from what I've noticed in the LA area, the competition has been so fierce over the last couple of years that grads from the higher ranked ABA schools are taking those PD/DA jobs that were initially taken first by CBE grads, then online grads.  I recommend CBE over online because only about 25 - 30% of the students that take FYLSE pass and the pass rate for retakers is even lower. 

http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=I4HxJJNgGJE%3d&tabid=2269&mid=3159

CBE students do not have to take the baby bar and it's half the price of ABA.   Of course, one can be successful online, it's just more difficult to compete these days.   If you have a graduate degree and entrepeneurial skills, then online is perfect.  I just wanted to make it clear to the OP that PD and DA jobs have been much more difficult to get especially in the LA area over the last couple of years.  (I'm not sure where he is from)

I agree there is no one size fits all, but there was a hiring freeze for those jobs for almost two years.  So no graduate from any shcool could even apply.  This is also around the time when law suits started popping up against the lower tiered ABA schools for falsifying employment statistics.   

Btw, Legend, you are correct.  I am a student at Western State, and even I have gotten a lot of grief for going to a tier 4 school.  It's only until I explain that I have an internship lined up and a job waiting for me when I graduate that people are semi-ok with it.   I say "semi" because there are still suspicions as to whether or not I'll be successful.  I would have much rather gone to a CBE and am still considering it, but I also plan to take the bar in Massachusetts and do not want to wait 3-5 years to do that.  That being said, I like my shcool.  The students are great and the class sizes are small so access to professors was easier, which I wanted my first year. 

Maintain FL 350

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Re: Northwestern California University, School of Law.
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2012, 01:50:29 PM »
Western State just posted a 92% first time bar pass rate for the February 2012 California bar, and has been averaging 75%-80% for the last few years. Anyone who thinks you're at an inferior school is simply ignorant. BTW, I'm not a WSU grad, so this isn't just an attempt to brag about my alma mater.