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Author Topic: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University  (Read 1718 times)

jones1qd

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Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« on: May 03, 2012, 09:45:46 AM »
I really need some help on deciding which school to attend. I have been accepted at both Phoenix School of Law and Oklahoma City University. Phoenix has offered me $6000 a year and OCU has offered $4,000 a year. For either school, I plan to transfer after my first year to one of the schools in Colorado. Does one of these schools give me a better chance to transfer over the other?

I will not have a car my first year and from the looks of it, Phoenix has a better public transportation system than OCU. I am transferring to be back where my wife is in Denver. Any help on the two schools is appreciated. Oh yeah, taking the LSAT again is not an option and staying at either school to graduate isn't unless they offer a lot of money. I'm really looking to see if Phoenix or OCU is a better option to start or are they both about equal as long as I perform and stay at the top of my class. Thanks for the help!

HolmesBoy

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 10:47:15 AM »
Research the curves at each school. If you want to transfer, you should probably attend the school with the better curve. It's not necessarily easy to transfer between law schools.

legend

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 05:09:17 PM »
Phoenix & Oklahoma are two very different places and if Colorado is where you want to end up then retaking is probably the right move. There is nothing awful about either of these schools, but the odds of transferring and being at the top of your class are minimal. Nothing against you, but almost everyone at any ABA school is smart, hard-working, motivated, and on the first day of any law school class 100% of people think they are going to be in the top 10%. There is a 90% chance you won't be in the top 10% and then you are going to be one year into law school and have a significant amount of debt, and be in a city & school you had no desire to be in.

Even if you are in the top 10 or 20% transferring still presents obstacles. Whether you go to OKC or Phoenix you are going to have an apartment, make friends, and maybe get into a serious relationship, a lot can happen in a year particularly 1L. Attending any law school is a big commitment, and once you are in it is hard to leave. Furthermore, first year is something that can't be explained and once you go through with your section it could be difficult to transfer and leave your friends, professors, etc behind. Those are other considerations to take into account even if you overcome the grades obstacle, which won't be easy.

As for the scholarships what are the conditions on those? Usually it will be a 3.0 and that is very hard to maintain in law school. This article does a good explaining scholarships, and the law school curve.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all .

Again I think either of these schools can prepare you for a legal career in Phoenix or Oklahoma City. If Colorado is your goal you have an uphill battle and the realistic odds are you will be in OKC or Phoenix for three years, and the start of your legal career, and possibly the rest of your life.  If you don't like a location and a school then don't go there. You should never go to a school thinking your going to transfer. If at the end of first year your grades are good enough to do so that is great, but the odds are stacked against you from that happening.

Your post is something many 0L's truly believe that they will work hard and overcome any obstacle. However, 90% of students who will think they will be in the top 10% at every law school on the first day are wrong. All these people are smart, hard working, dedicated students, and Phoenix and OKC will have very smart people as well and being at the top of your class will not be easy.

If your dead-set on transferring, which any lawyer will tell you is unlikely to happen then do what Holmes suggested go to the handbook and check out the curves from the respective schools. At least you will have a better chance, but going to school expecting to transfer or expecting to be in the top of the class is not a good idea. Odds are you will be disappointed, but if you do it I hope you prove me wrong.

Good luck to you whatever you decide.











Maintain FL 350

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 06:20:53 PM »
I don't think that either school will give you an advantage over the other in terms of transferring. You'll need to do exceptionally well at either to have good shot.

I really try not to be a naysayer about people's choices because it's impossible for me to truly understand your personal situation. Nonetheless, I would not advise anyone to go ANY law school that they were not prepared to spend all three years attending.

If you have any friends or family who are lawyers ask them what it means to score in the top 10-15% in a JD program. Its very, very difficult. Remember, you won't be competing against slackers and halfwits like you did in college. You'll be competing against smart, ambitious people just like you.

If you do choose to attend one of these schools try to go into the program with your eyes wide open. Give yourself realistic, achievable goals and have a back-up plan. Ask yourself "What if I don't get to transfer? What if I don't get additional financial aid? Will I stay or drop out?" It's better to have a plan now in case things don't work out. Also, objectively assess your own capabilities. You know yourself better than anyone else does. I assume (perhaps wrongly) that you did not get accepted at either CU or DU. If so, do you think you'll be able to pull off top 10% in law school? I'm not saying you can't , just ask yourself these questions.

If you base this enormous decision on a very difficult to predict contingency (high grades), you may be setting yourself up for a huge financial and personal disappointment. Is it possible for your wife to join you in either OKC or PHX? If so, that would be a huge help.

Good Luck with whatever you decide!

jones1qd

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 06:48:22 PM »
Thanks you guys for the responses they are all appreciated. I talked to CU and DU and got the numbers on how many transfers they typically let in and whether or not they take into account the school you are coming from. DU said that they don't put much weight into the school you came from and it is based on you cumulative GPA and class rank. CU on the other hand does take into account the school you are coming from. Also, I am really not looking to practice law as my first option it is my back up plan. I actually plan to go into representing athletes and becoming an attorney is just to build up the money to finance my representation of athletes. So, in terms of becoming a lawyer to work at a law firm, it is not one of my goals going into law school. I really just need the law degree to help my resume with these athletes.

For anyone wondering, DU typically takes 25 transfer/visiting students while CU takes about 12-15. Also, should I be concerned that Phoenix School of Law is a for profit school and just was founded a few years ago as well as just being ABA accredited in 2010. OCU seems to have a longer history and fits a more traditional mold. Will that matter in transferring?

legend

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »
I want to make one point it sounds like Denver is where you need to end up. I just looked at the GPA/LSAT numbers for Denver and they are higher than Phoenix, but only by a few LSAT points & GPA points. I want to apply a little math for you and anyone else that is considering transferring.

Now the odds of you retaking the LSAT and improving some degree are high. I doubt you will get a 170 or anything, but your odds of improving 10 or so points on the LSAT are much higher than ending up in the top 10-15% of a law school class. There is also far less risk involved in retaking the LSAT than moving cross country away from your wife who I didn't notice in the first post and shelling out 40,000.  I am generally against telling people to retake the LSAT, because I think everyone has a plateu, but since you specifically want to end up in Denver and they don't require Harvard numbers I think with significant study you could improve your LSAT enough to gain admission.

If you improve your LSAT and get admitted into Denver mission accomplished, if you don't then your only out $200-300 and you remain with your wife, keep your house/apartment, and so on.  That scenario is a lot better than if you don't finish in the top 10-20% and your stuck in Oklahoma or Phoenix with 40,000 in debt accruing interest. Since you have specifically stated you don't really want to be lawyer you could try for an MBA or something if the LSAT doesn't work out. Bottom line the odds of improving your LSAT are higher and much less risky than moving cross-country away from your wife and spending 30-40k on tuition where there is literally a 80 to 90% chance you won't succeed, because there is 80 to 90% chance you won't be in the top 10 or 20%.

I am not in your position and I am just an anonymous internet poster, but with the specific situation you have listed I think OKC/Phoenix would be a bad idea, and retaking under the circumstances you described would be the smarter decision. If you were some young single kid who truly didn't care where they ended up then OKC/Phoenix would be fine, but you have a wife with a job who cannot just up and leave, and odds are you will not get into Denver or CU at the end of your first year. Again nothing personal just the reality of legal education and if that happens your options be stay in Phoenix or OKC for two more years or quit law school move back to Colorado with 40k in debt and nothing to show for it.

Just something to think about, but again I and anyone else on this board or others is an anonymous internet poster and you know what will work for you better than anyone else. However, if your main goal is to end up in a law school in Colorado then the most likely and least risky way to accomplish that is to retake the LSAT.

Good luck to you.


Maintain FL 350

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 04:05:18 PM »
I wouldn't be too worried about the fact theat PHX received ABA accred in 2010. A school must be in operation for one year before they can apply for provisional approval, then must maintain provisional approval for at lest three years. PHX opened in 2005, so obtaining full approval by 2010 is pretty good. Also, their in-state bar pass rate seems good, which is usually a good sign.

As far as their for-profit status, I'm not sure how (or if) that would affect things. The ABA freaked out when Western State in CA (a for-profit school) applied for approval. Thay eventually got approved and to the best of my knowledge operate pretty much the same as any other law school. If at all possible I would highly advise taking trips to PHX and OKC and checking them out for yourself. Speak to current students, get a feel for the place. Sounds like CU might foocus on the rep of the school a little more, so OKC might be a more established choice. I suspect, however,  that grades and ranking will outweigh everything else.

I know that you don't want to re-take the LSAT and I can understand why, it means waiting another whole year. But consider this: some schools have fall and spring admissions. You may not have to wait a whole academic year to matriculate. Also, you could reapply to the part-time program at DU. PT programs are usually easier to get admitted to. Food for thought.

Lastly, if you're not committed to being a lawyer you might want to think about whether or not law school is the right move. The fact is, you will likely graduate with significant debt and will have to work as an attorney in order to make the payments. You  will probably be putting in pretty long hours which will make it difficult to start up a sports agent career. I'm not trying to dissuade you, it's just that I've been through this process and I can tell you from personal experience that it is very difficult to predict (or even plan) what you will be doing after graduation. 

fortook

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Re: Phoenix School of Law or Oklahoma City University
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »
Did anyone mention relying on transferring is a risky and dangerous move?  Its not at all likely.  You will likely be forced to either stay at the school or leave- not transfer.
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