Cooley vs Capital

[legend]

I have to chime in responding to the numbers. I know basically nothing about any of these schools, but in my opinion the individual is far more responsible for finding employment than a school. You can go to Harvard and show up 30 minutes late to an interview your probably not going to get the job. Or you can simply not apply and if you don't apply your not going to get a job. I attended a tier 2 and I focused far more on school, journals, mock trial competitions, etc than finding employment in my third year. I didn't have a job lined up at graduation and the reason was I didn't apply to anything.  That was completely stupid of me and had absolutely nothing to do with my school. I eventually applied and got my career started, but it was not easy and I definitely made numerous mistakes during my job search that were my responsibility, and my school had nothing to do with it.

At everyone of the schools you have listed people have found jobs although many are unemployed, but a school can't force you to apply to a job, it can't force you to be punctual, or do all of the things a law graduate looking for employment needs to do on their own. Maybe these schools truly are awful, but there are multiple graduates from each  school that are working, which makes me think the individual students may have a lot more to do with the numbers than the schools. That is just the opinion of an anonymous internet poster though and maybe your right. 

[john4040]

I don't think so.  On the whole, job prospects tend to get worse the deeper you go into the law school rankings.  That tends to demonstrate that it is, in fact, the schools, rather than the individuals.

[legend]

Again who knows what the answer is, but if look at the "numbers" provided by Holmes in a prior link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aik9aY0xMn8JdHZpRzRGNmpIVnFMMTJ0bXNRS0NBd3c&gid=4 Drake & Tulsa place better than Northwestern or Boalt. In reality you can find numbers to favor anything and 60% of the time that is true everytime.   

You can't argue that there are people from every single ABA school that have found jobs. I am also not arguing that Tier 4's will open the same doors as a T14, but if you want to be a lawyer and you know really know what your getting yourself into a T4 can work out. No applicant should leave their common sense at the door when making this decision though.  Without question  some paths that will be closed if you attend certain schools. Prestige and so on is highly important in some areas of the law, but not important in others. If OP is counting on a Federal Clerkship followed by Pillsbury, Covington, and White & Case fighting to get him in a contract they will be disappointed.  I would advise anyone counting or wanting that route to retake the LSAT until they get T14 numbers and even then they may not succeed.

If someone wants to do family law in small town then go to law school in the location that works for you. I have no idea what the OP has in mind for themselves, but I think most law school applicants realize the reality of the situation when they attend a T2,T3,T4 school. If they don't that falls far more on them than whatever law school they attend. Again that is just my two cents and whatever happens in the pending lawschool lawsuit could put my philosophy in the minority.

 

[cerealkiller]

On the whole, job prospects tend to get worse the deeper you go into the law school rankings.  That tends to demonstrate that it is, in fact, the schools, rather than the individuals.

A contrarian viewpoint would be that the dismal job prospects faced by graduates of lower-tiered schools are more reflective of the realities of supply and demand than an inadequacy of the schools themselves.

Let's face it: law school is law school is law school. There's only one way to read and interpret Hamer v. Sidway. All American law schools share a similar first-year curriculum. Students can then differentiate themselves by course selection, extracurricular activities, and internships in the second and third years. But even this preparation can take one only so far.

The recession forced corporations to rethink how they spent money on legal services. Some 366 corporations, for instance, refused to pay for legal work done by first and second year associates. This phenomenon caused the hiring freezes, which was soon followed by mass layoffs of experienced associates resulting from the downsizing and/or elimination of legal departments within multinational law firms. Many of the laid-off associates, who had valuable legal experience, landed in mid-law and boutique firms ahead of newly-minted attorneys.

Without casting blame on corporations (Biglaw was, in large part, a victim of its own success), their decision to tighten the belt straps has trickled down throughout the entire legal community with disastrous effect.  This has left lower-tiered students without many viable options in a contracted legal marketplace.

If this "new normal" is here to stay, as it appears to be, then we need to rethink and reorganize legal education in America. Many of the lower-tiered schools are no longer needed because the supply of new graduates each year now far exceeds the demand for their services. Law firms that once were happy to hire graduates from second-tier schools are now able to pluck kids from the upper first-tier without issue.

[john4040]

Again who knows what the answer is, but if look at the "numbers" provided by Holmes in a prior link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aik9aY0xMn8JdHZpRzRGNmpIVnFMMTJ0bXNRS0NBd3c&gid=4 Drake & Tulsa place better than Northwestern or Boalt. In reality you can find numbers to favor anything and 60% of the time that is true everytime.   

Not sure where these stats came from, but I have two points to make with respect to them.  First, it seems as though it's purporting to show "LT employment" - (whatever that is - guessing "long term employment"?).  My bet is that it would include working at McDonald's and Starbucks.  If that's the case, it is altogether likely that a greater percentage of Drake and Tulsa graduates are employed than Northwestern or Boalt graduates.  Second, as with just about everything in life, there will always be a few outliers.  However, that doesn't refute my statement that, on the whole, the further down you go in the rankings, the worse the job prospects.

You can't argue that there are people from every single ABA school that have found jobs.

Trust me.  This is not my argument.

I think most law school applicants realize the reality of the situation when they attend a T2,T3,T4 school.

I think you're mistaken.  I think they know it's bad, however, most either tend to underestimate just how bad it is or assume that they are special snowflakes that will beat the system or transfer.  It's only after 1L or 2L, when they're stuck in the middle of the pack at a T3 or T4, that they start to get that sinking feeling in their stomachs.  By that point in time, they're already swimming in $100K of debt, so, what the hell, why not finish it off and have something to show for it?

It seems like every other day I see a new post on here about how some kid is willing to take on the risk of going to a T3 or T4 with the hopes of transferring up.  I don't even bother commenting on those threads any more.  Good luck cracking the top 10% of your class - the odds are heavily stacked against you and I hope you've made a backup plan to cut your losses in the (90% likely) event that you original plan backfires.

[Nova Juris]

so according to those stats Cooleys total unemployment stats are LOWER than several of the other law schools? (some look dang near double)

[john4040]

so according to those stats Cooleys total unemployment stats are LOWER than several of the other law schools? (some look dang near double)

Yes.  I'm not sure anyone here was arguing otherwise.

[legend]

Again who knows what the answer is, but if look at the "numbers" provided by Holmes in a prior link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aik9aY0xMn8JdHZpRzRGNmpIVnFMMTJ0bXNRS0NBd3c&gid=4 Drake & Tulsa place better than Northwestern or Boalt. In reality you can find numbers to favor anything and 60% of the time that is true everytime.   

Not sure where these stats came from, but I have two points to make with respect to them.  First, it seems as though it's purporting to show "LT employment" - (whatever that is - guessing "long term employment"?).  My bet is that it would include working at McDonald's and Starbucks.  If that's the case, it is altogether likely that a greater percentage of Drake and Tulsa graduates are employed than Northwestern or Boalt graduates.  Second, as with just about everything in life, there will always be a few outliers.  However, that doesn't refute my statement that, on the whole, the further down you go in the rankings, the worse the job prospects.

You can't argue that there are people from every single ABA school that have found jobs.

Trust me.  This is not my argument.

I think most law school applicants realize the reality of the situation when they attend a T2,T3,T4 school.

I think you're mistaken.  I think they know it's bad, however, most either tend to underestimate just how bad it is or assume that they are special snowflakes that will beat the system or transfer.  It's only after 1L or 2L, when they're stuck in the middle of the pack at a T3 or T4, that they start to get that sinking feeling in their stomachs.  By that point in time, they're already swimming in $100K of debt, so, what the hell, why not finish it off and have something to show for it?

It seems like every other day I see a new post on here about how some kid is willing to take on the risk of going to a T3 or T4 with the hopes of transferring up.  I don't even bother commenting on those threads any more.  Good luck cracking the top 10% of your class - the odds are heavily stacked against you and I hope you've made a backup plan to cut your losses in the (90% likely) event that you original plan backfires.

In response to the numbers Holmes earlier in this thread posted it, but who knows how accurate they are. You also posted some numbers in this thread and who knows how accurate they are.  I think we all realize numbers can easily be manipulated to show whatever you want particularly in the area of employment. If you go to a law school's website the numbers look great.  If you go to JD underground or the site you posted the numbers you look terrible. It is pretty similar to a trial where you have two experts saying completely opposite things based on what agenda they are trying to serve, and nobody knows what the real answer is. However, even without numbers we are able to apply common sense and realize Harvard places better than Cooley.

To my original point I truly believe the individual student plays a much more significant role than they school they attended. At my T2 there were people I would not have trusted to feed my cat yet alone be my attorney, and a few of those people never passed the bar. To further this point I think you should watch a movie called lawyer walks into a bar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Lawyer_Walks_into_a_Bar . There are students from UCLA, LMU (I believe a T2 school, Western State (T4), and a CBA school. It is a documentary of students taking the bar and you see the personalities come out of each person and half of them fail while half pass. After you see the personalities of the individuals and what each person puts in your not surprised by who fails and who passes. The schools they went attended had no affect on their individual personalities. 

So to the OP and all the negativity you see on the internet realize that you play a pretty big factor in how things turn out. There is no sugarcoating it and some doors will be closed if you attend a T2, T3, T4 school and as John points out you should never go to law school expecting to transfer. I already posted on the cost, location, and how you personally feel about the school to be a minimal guidepost in your decision. To anyone considering law school realize people on the internet don't know you, your situation, or what will work for you. You can go to any ABA school and find people that loved their experience and others that hated it. 

Finally Harvard, Yale, Stanford, are good schools that shouldn't surprise anyone and their are firms and positions that will not even look at your resume if you didn't go o a top school. However, there are plenty of places that will bring in for an interview. If your looking for a Federal Clerkship followed by an associate gig at Covington do not go to a T4 school. If your simply after passing the bar, doing family law, etc then a no-name school can work out. However, I could be 100% wrong in everything I have said. I am speaking as one person anonymously on the internet and I have only worked as a lawyer in one state and one city. Truth be told I don't know everything about the state and city I living in, and there certainly cannot speak to how things work South Dakota, Miami, Lansing, or Columbus. I and essentially every internet poster can only speak on their limited experiences and that is why they should all be heavily scrutinized and make the decision that is best for you. It is your life, your money, and your decision use your own personal experiences to decide what is best for you.

[fortook]

So.....Cooley or Capitol?

[john4040]

So.....Cooley or Capitol?

BOTH, AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!111!