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For all those who cry about our jobs stats......

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Julie Fern:
now add to that students who believe they should get high grades without doing much work, or at least very good work.

jack24:
What is personal litigation?  Does that mean non-business litigation.  Couldn't you just say, "Litigation"

Anyway, I'm glad this thread was resurrected.  I remember reading it a while back.

Cher1300, if you are reading this, sorry to be sassy:
1) What type of work experience do they need?  What if they move bricks for a living or work at the school library?  I worked my way through school, and I learned a lot.  But I don't think you need to work through school to know how to handle stress and show up on time.  Additionally, work ethic changes depending on the job.  A salesman who makes commission by selling mortgage products might have to go to luncheon's and play golf a lot and he has to be self-driven and commit to the sale.  A grocery store clerk basically just has to work at a high level and stay put.  Those are two wildly different skill sets.

2) The second paragraph of points you make sounds like someone who only likes to manage one type of person.  Maybe a college student who was involved in several campus activities and frats and partied all the time will actually have a wildly different skill set than someone who worked the window at the movie theater.   Your post implies (not insinuates, since that's different) that you want to hire drones. 

Also, a 3.0 and a 4.0 are miles apart, Duncanjp.  At most state universities, a 3.0 in a liberal arts degree doesn't require hardly any effort.  Maybe some 4.0's aren't "that" impressive, but a true 4.0 shows dedication.    That said, a 3.6 and holding down a job is pretty dang impressive. A 3.0 and holding down a job shows you have the skills of a highly functioning primate, at least.




Cher1300:

--- Quote from: jack24 on August 27, 2012, 06:56:47 PM ---What is personal litigation?  Does that mean non-business litigation.  Couldn't you just say, "Litigation"

Anyway, I'm glad this thread was resurrected.  I remember reading it a while back.

Cher1300, if you are reading this, sorry to be sassy:
1) What type of work experience do they need?  What if they move bricks for a living or work at the school library?  I worked my way through school, and I learned a lot.  But I don't think you need to work through school to know how to handle stress and show up on time.  Additionally, work ethic changes depending on the job.  A salesman who makes commission by selling mortgage products might have to go to luncheon's and play golf a lot and he has to be self-driven and commit to the sale.  A grocery store clerk basically just has to work at a high level and stay put.  Those are two wildly different skill sets.

2) The second paragraph of points you make sounds like someone who only likes to manage one type of person.  Maybe a college student who was involved in several campus activities and frats and partied all the time will actually have a wildly different skill set than someone who worked the window at the movie theater.   Your post implies (not insinuates, since that's different) that you want to hire drones. 

Also, a 3.0 and a 4.0 are miles apart, Duncanjp.  At most state universities, a 3.0 in a liberal arts degree doesn't require hardly any effort.  Maybe some 4.0's aren't "that" impressive, but a true 4.0 shows dedication.    That said, a 3.6 and holding down a job is pretty dang impressive. A 3.0 and holding down a job shows you have the skills of a highly functioning primate, at least.






--- End quote ---
ANY type of work experience.  My point wasn't so much that they have to have a crappy job to get hired.  My point was that the college students entering the work force these days have NO work experience, won't do an entry level job, and complain that they can't get a job.  I went to college too.  I worked, did activities, and still had time to party.  Campus activities are pretty easy - at least the ones I was involved in.   So was partying.  Most people do campus activities and go to parties they enjoy.  Going to work and dealing with a difficult public or difficult coworkers or boss isn't always enjoyable.   Maybe you haven't had to deal with that on your job, but I found work to be very different than academia, parties, and activities.   Of course you need different skill sets.  Most of the sales people I work with that do those lunches or golf outings, however, are working their @$% off to meet a quota and get the sale even if that means working nights and/or weekends.

The kids coming out of college now are very bright and probably much smarter than my generation.  However, they are having a difficult time making it in the work force and I believe it has more to do with an unwillingness to do an entry level job than the recession.  They are competing with others who will do those jobs and don't care if they have to do it.  Entry level positions and admin positions can turn into management or higher level jobs.   So when someone complains that they aren't making 40K right out of college with no work experience when they've had opportunities for entry level positions, it's hard to feel sorry for them.
 
Lastly, Im curious as to why you think my second paragraph implies that I hire drones.  Is it because you think working at Burger King while going to college makes a person a drone?  It implies the exact opposite to me, but may explain why high school and college kids won't do those jobs.  Perceptions vary widely. 

Over the years, many employers - including a DA that recently spoke at our school - mentioned that working in the food industry was a plus on a resume when someone didn't have a great deal of experience.  They explained that those jobs dealt with a high amount of stress and involved a great deal of interaction with the public.  Does every employer feel this way?  Probably not.  Does this job require an education?  No.  But it does require a skill set that an employer may be looking for.

Honestly, what these kids do or don't do isn't going to hurt me in the long run, so what do I care really?  It's just some issues I've noticed over the years.  My main point was that you have to start somewhere - even if it is as a drone at BK.

jack24:

--- Quote from: Cher1300 on May 14, 2012, 05:50:44 PM ---  Now, I can't speak for every other employer out there, but if I have to choose between someone who worked at Burger King for the last year with a 3.2 gpa versus one with a 4.0 gpa and no work experience, I'm going to hire the BK kid.  I'm looking for a strong work ethic and a desire to work.  If you stayed at home depending on mommy and daddy for the last year without doing some type of work, it insinuates that either you won't do certain tasks required for your job or that you may not even want to work.  Everyone has to pay their dues at some point.  How can I possibly give someone a chance at an entry level job when I don't know if they can even hold down a job?   

--- End quote ---

Cher1300:
I don't know if you want to hire drones or even what your definition of drones is.
Work ethic and "dues paying" are important, but they can often be overcome with management and incentives.  Many employers don't think they should have to manage or incentives.  They want someone who works because that's what people should do.   I had an employer who complained about how people were on facebook all the time.  He managed to get it banned from the network but he didn't point out deficiencies in our work product, and we hadn't missed any deadlines.  He addressed the symptoms, not the problem.

The new generation, particularly those smart kids with no work experience, probably won't work without an assignment and a reason.  Drones work because they are there to work.  They find things to do. They see a need, they fill a need.   That said, Many managers are far to busy (lazy) to train, assign, evaluate, and give feedback.  They feel this is "babysitting."    Also, many managers don't want workers who say, "Why are we doing this>?  This doesn't make sense. I'm not doing it."   Most of the time that is because managers are either too busy (lazy) or they don't have a good answer.

Your statement implies that you either evaluate work ethic over talent, or you don't see a 4.0 as evidence of talent.  If it's the latter, then fine.  If it's the former, then you don't have enough confidence in your ability to manage.

Cher1300:
It's not that I don't think someone with a 4.0 has no talent.  The reason I'd hire the person with work experience at BK with a 3.2 instead is because they probably could have gotten a higher gpa if they didn't work in addition to doing a crappy job that gave them some additional skills dealing with people. 

Unless you are a rock star, I don't know of a single profession where someone doesn't dislike doing a part of their job.  Whether that's mopping a floor, dealing with angry customers, or even a judge that doesn't like you and embarasses you in a court room.  Unfortunately, that is life in general.  Of course some managers are lazy and maybe they make people do stupid things.  Usually it's because they are on a power trip.  But how much training, feedback, and assignments with explanations are managers supposed to do?

All of the things you mentioned were discussed in a seminar one of my coworkers went to.  It was focused on the newer generation of grads coming in to the work force and how companies are changing their management styles to help them succeed.  It was explained that they were raised by helicopter parents who were "hyper-present, but psychologically MIA."  The new grads don't take initiative because they are used to being told when to do everything.  When to wake up, when to do their homework, in addition to watching their parents blame teachers for the their bad grades, etc.   Yet, the psychological absence has also made them more sensitive.  The paperwork on this seminar actually describes the kids as spoiled.  While I agree that a manager needs to give feedback, assignments, and training, etc., there is also overkill through micro managing.  Does your boss have to explain every single assignment he gives you and if you don't like it, do you tell him you're not going to do it?  I mean, I have no problem telling someone why they have to do something, but if I have to stand there asking them and smiling at them and cheering them on to get them motivated, then I will absolutely feel like a babysitter. 

My definition of a drone is someone who mindlessly does things.  I don't believe taking some initiative is mindless.  No one wants to work for a manager that doesn't care or makes them do non-sensical taks just because they are on a power trip.  However, no manager wants to be someone's helicopter parent at work all day either. They should be able to handle some situtations without constant guidance, and some history of work experience usually indicates they've acquired some skills.

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