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Author Topic: When will schools be stopped from doing this?  (Read 4692 times)

Duncanjp

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 06:32:38 PM »
I would agree with you that a high attrition rate is not a feather in any school's cap, Fortook. But there are some differences in the circumstances between students who attend ABA schools versus those who attend CBE schools, such that it may not be completely fair to view a 40 percent attrition rate from a CBE school the same way one would (or should) view the same attrition rate from an ABA school. For one thing, poor grades are likely to account for a smaller percentage of those who fail to advance at a CBE school than with an ABA school (although I have no doubt that it's a leading cause in each). I don't know the true statistics, but I recall that a substantial number of people just couldn't handle the grind of working all day, five days a week, and spending three of those nights in class, then spending all of the rest of their time studying. It's a serious dose of bottle shock when you first enroll, and nobody really knows whether he or she can handle it until he tries. Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think that coping with the grind of attending a full-time ABA law school is not as significant a contributing factor to ABA attrition rates as it is to CBE schools.

At an evening CBE school, the grind may be the reason why a third or more of the 30-40 percent who leave do so during or after the first year. Maybe it's as many as half. (I honestly don't know. I'm speculating, based on anecdotal knowledge.) But it's a rigorous and unrelenting lifestyle. As an example, three nights a week, M, T, Th, I leave my house for work at 7 a.m., and I don't get home after class until 10 p.m. I'm on the go the entire day. Usually I have to eat my lunch at my desk while working to keep my bases covered because I can't stay more than an hour late at the most without being late for class. When I'm not at work or in class, I'm studying. I've had to sacrifice most of my social life to keep from falling behind. For many, including myself, this is doable. But a good number of people find that they can't take it and end up dropping after the first month or two before their tuition becomes non-refundable. Their numbers inflate the attrition rate of CBE schools beyond what I would expect from an ABA school.

On the subject of grades, CBE schools don't pull any punches when it comes to grading exams. At the beginning of the the first year, or 1E, a percentage of the people admitted had received relatively low scores on the LSAT: not because they're stupid, but because their brains just aren't wired to think logically and analytically. Maybe they don't possess the critical reasoning skills to IRAC a problem from both sides at the level that it takes to succeed. It would be easy to say that they should not be allowed to enroll at all, and thus save themselves time and money. But the fact is that the LSAT is not conclusive evidence of how a person will perform, even if it can be an indicator. I think it's good that there is an accredited option out there for unspectacular students to take a stab at becoming an attorney, if that's their dream. Some of them are going to be weeded out, maybe a lot of them, but at least they had a chance to try. Meanwhile, the A/B students frequently go on to successful careers. The people I would be most concerned for at a CBE school are the C students. My crim law professor told us during the first week or two of school that students at state-accredited schools who pass with only marginal grades statistically have a very difficult time passing the California bar. So help me, I will not allow myself to fall into that category.

Anti09

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 11:19:47 AM »
lolol @ people ITT who think they can get a job from a CBE school in probably the most over saturated and competitive market in the country

fortook

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 06:39:06 PM »
Villaraigosa went to People's?  That's awesome.  I noticed he never passed the bar :(. Raises a question: has anyone from People's passed the bar and is practicing?

Do CBE students seem more long winded and formal than ABA students?

I'm not knocking non-ABA schools, btw. I have met successful non-ABA grads. Depends on the school and the region, just like with ABA  schools.

The topic was pretty generalized to begin with, have we really strayed that far?
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Maintain FL 350

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 06:43:25 PM »
 
lolol @ people ITT who think they can get a job from a CBE school in probably the most over saturated and competitive market in the country

I don't think anyone disputes that it's generally much harder for a CBE grad to get a job straight out of law school. Further, I don't think anyone disputes that biglaw is out of the question for CBE grads. But a statement such as the above demonstrates an obvious lack of experience. If you practice in CA you will come into contact with successful CBE grads on a daily basis. The DA's, PD's, and small firms in CA are full of CBE grads. I've met CBE grads who started successful small firms which in time became successful mid-sized firms, and who could buy and sell the average biglaw partner without even worrying.

Incidentally, I didn't attend a CBE school. I graduated from an ABA school. I've met enough good attorneys from CBE schools (and lower tiered ABA schools), however, that it's caused me to rethink some of my earlier presumptions. 

legend

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 07:32:15 PM »
Good response. I can name four pretty successful people that attended non-aba schools.

The Mayor of L.A. (People's College of Law)

The District Attorney of San Francisco (Western State) not ABA approved when the guy graduated.

The District Attorney of San Diego (Western State) not approved when the woman graduated.

The District Attorney of Fresno (San Joaquin College of Law)

Maintain FL 350

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 09:50:59 PM »
25% of the judges and DAs in Orange County are Western State grads, and I have to think that the vast majority graduated before WSU had ABA approval.

fortook

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 11:40:38 PM »
lol legend. I admit, I am picking on you a little bit, but could you expand a little more please ;).

 
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Duncanjp

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 01:39:29 AM »
For what it's worth, the DA of Sacramento is another who went to a CBE school, and she's been the DA for a fairly long time now. Approaching 20 years, perhaps.

About once or twice a year, usually on a long weekend between semesters, I get a buzz out of writing about attending law school. It can be fun to argue the benefits of attending a CBE school because the difficulty of making the case presents an entertaining challenge. But the rest of the time, I'm too busy with my career and my studies to waste a lot of time posting on law threads. Besides, law forums, especially that other one, are absolutely riddled with posters of invincible rudeness. I don't have the patience for it.

But once in awhile somebody like Roald comes along, a person of class and respectful disposition, who writes intelligent, thought-provoking posts, and does so eloquently and with perfect English.

Nice chatting with you, Roald.

Maintain FL 350

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 09:34:17 AM »
Thank you, Duncan, that's very nice. The fact is, most law students have little (if any) experience outside of the law school world. They fail to understand that biglaw, for example, represents a small percentage of the legal market, and that the rest of the world is not quite so obsessed with rankings. They also fail to understand that law is a results driven industry, and that if you don't produce results nobody gives a s*&$ where you went to law school. You can only rest on those laurels for so long.

fortook

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Re: When will schools be stopped from doing this?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 09:40:49 AM »
Maybe you guys should kiss just to break the tension.

Oh I noticed that about you Duncan.  Its kool.  You will have to get used to defending CBEs. The law attracts too many insecure d.bags that think they can make themselves feel better by putting others down, I've noticed as well.

My observation about you and legend was meant to be along the same lines- just in terms of a trend.  But not to be insulting.
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