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Author Topic: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree  (Read 7136 times)

jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (American Samoa)
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2012, 09:51:36 AM »
American Samoa looks possible if one is a member of the DC bar (California has no reciprocity) and the reciprocity rule is interpreted as trumping the Education rule.

Looks like you have to be resident in that jurisdiction though, no non resident attorneys will be admitted.


jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree (Maine)
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2012, 10:04:22 AM »
The question here is whether one can argue that DL schools are accredited by California.  My understanding is that they may not be, they are just registered with the state.  Therefore a potentilal issue would be convincing Maine that for the purposes of their statute registered means the same thing as state accredited or is of no consequence since the applicant already is a practicing attorney.

CAN ATTORNEYS ADMITTED IN ANOTHER STATE QUALIFY FOR A MODIFIED EXAMINATION?

Yes. The Maine Board of Bar Examiners offers two types of modified examinations, which are described in MBAR 10(e).

Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i), if an attorney has been admitted by examination to practice in one or more jurisdictions in the United States and has been in the active practice of law for at least 3 of the preceding 5 years in a jurisdiction in which he or she is licensed, the attorney may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination. In addition, these attorneys are not required to use a Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) score.

Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(ii), an applicant who has taken the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) within 61 months prior to the current administration of the Maine examination may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination and use the prior MBE score.

Under MBAR 10(e)(2), an applicant who qualifies under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i) or (ii) and who has a MBE score of 155 or better on an examination which the applicant passed, is qualified to elect to take only the first two questions on the Maine Bar Examination. These questions cover one or more of the following: Maine's Code of Professional Responsibility, Maine's Rules of Evidence and Maine's Rules of Civil, Appellate and Criminal Procedure

WHAT IF I ATTENDED A NON-ABA ACCREDITED LAW SCHOOL?

Maine Bar Admission Rule 10 (c) (3)) requires that applicants who graduate from a non-ABA accredited program must be admitted and practice in a jurisdiction for three years before they are eligible to sit for the Maine bar. MBAR 10(c)(3). Graduates of the Massachusetts School of Law are eligible to sit for the Maine bar exam if they have been admitted in Massachusetts and file a certificate of good standing with the Board:


(3) graduated from a law school accredited by the United States jurisdiction in
which it is located
and has been admitted to practice by examination in one or more
jurisdictions within the United States and has been in active practice there for at least
3 years

Duncanjp

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2012, 11:52:13 PM »
This isn't really a DL post I'm about to write, but it may add some food for thought. I'm a 2L at a California-accredited law school. There are advantages and disadvantages of a CBA school to any ABA school in CA.

ADVANTAGES of CBA
1. The tuition is about one-third the cost of the cheapest ABA school in California, which means you don't graduate owing the equivalent of a 30-year mortgage to a lender. I won't owe anybody one thin dime when I graduate.
2. If you maintain at least a C in all core 1L classes, you don't have to take the baby bar.
3. CBA schools allow you to hold down your current career while attending law school at night.
4. The quality of the classroom sessions and the coursework equate to what you'd get at an ABA school. My property professor got his J.D. from USC, and that's what he said, anyway. (I would know if I were being dealt a bill of goods on this point. The quality of the education is excellent, in my opinion.)
5. CBA schools are sometimes found in locales where the closest ABA school may be 200 miles away or more, depending on the circumstances.
6. Even if you barely speak English, they'll probably give you a chance to take a stab at 1L. So if you were an average student in college or got an average score on the LSAT, you have a good chance of getting accepted. And if in fact you can't handle it, see No. 1.
7. CBA graduates who pass the bar are found practicing law and sitting as judges all over California.
8. If you're already experienced, connected and successful in a field that you do not intend to leave, and a law license could enhance your existing career, then a CBA degree will take you to the next level. After all, you're successful already, yes? The goal here is singular: get the license. The prestige of the J.D. here is of little worth. Just get the license. Mission accomplished. The world is your oyster. As long as you're somewhere in California.

DISADVANTAGES
1. Oh Lord, you're stuck in Lodi. Forever. There are some exceptions, e.g., in-house counsel seem to have some freedom to move around the country after a few years of practice, but for the most part, if you don't intend to stay in CA, a CBA school is a total waste of money.
2. Forget Biglaw. Period.
3. As a direct result of Advantage No. 6 above, a percentage of people in 1L courses probably shouldn't be there. We lost more than a third of our class going into 2L, although in fairness, there were many reasons why people didn't return besides just grades.
4. A number of ABA students who have never done a tour of duty in the military, nor gone anywhere or done anything in life except attend school, are convinced that they are inherently superior to everything that walks and talks. Especially to the lowly CBA graduate. This character trait attaches to the personality profile and unships with great reluctance. Deal with it. This cannot be changed.
5. You'll have fewer career options.
6. You will have less prestige among other attorneys. You are not at all among the elite. This is the social and professional "relation back doctrine." See Disadvantage No. 4.
7. Unless you have the experience mentioned in Advantage No. 8, you're very likely to end up in criminal law if you make it all the way. I don't know the stats, and this isn't absolute. But I would risk five bucks I'm right.
8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.
9. Statistically, your odds of passing the bar on the first try are only 50-50. This bears some discussion. I do not believe that this has anything to do with getting a J.D. from a CBA school. It goes to the average academic abilities of CBA students taken as a whole. The A/B students who make it through a CBA education are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and would do just fine in an ABA school. And they tend to pass the bar on the first try. However, the other half of the CBA bar candidates who graduated with a C average have much greater difficulty passing the CA bar exam, which is well established as being one of the hardest bar exams in the country.

The practical upshot is, there are advantages and disadvantages to attending a CBA school. The same can be said for ABA schools, as shown by all the scambloggers across the internet screaming bloody murder about the size of their debt and the lack of jobs to be had. Whichever course you take, you need to weigh the decision carefully and pragmatically, taking into account the totality of your circumstances. (I just had to say that. I have my crim pro final in two weeks. This thread is a #$%&! distraction.)

jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »
DISADVANTAGES
1. Oh Lord, you're stuck in Lodi. Forever. There are some exceptions, e.g., in-house counsel seem to have some freedom to move around the country after a few years of practice, but for the most part, if you don't intend to stay in CA, a CBA school is a total waste of money.


Not necessarily after 5 years you have options also federal practice which we can discuss in another thread opens up all manner of possibilities.
Besides California is a huge state. In house counsel is not likely going be an option nor is working for the government, they all copy each others ads and put ABA only need apply even if the HR people haven't slightest idea what that means.  You want limited opportunities, try getting a DL degree.

2. Forget Biglaw. Period.

I agree but who want to go here?

3. As a direct result of Advantage No. 6 above, a percentage of people in 1L courses probably shouldn't be there. We lost more than a third of our class going into 2L, although in fairness, there were many reasons why people didn't return besides just grades.

That's a good thing, the ABA schools retain a lot of fools who then cause upteen problems once they become attorneys.

4. A number of ABA students who have never done a tour of duty in the military, nor gone anywhere or done anything in life except attend school, are convinced that they are inherently superior to everything that walks and talks. Especially to the lowly CBA graduate. This character trait attaches to the personality profile and unships with great reluctance. Deal with it. This cannot be changed.

Nothing worse than 23 year olds who are focused just on money, a good reason to avoid them if you are not one of the herd.

5. You'll have fewer career options.

Not necessaruly, as a licensed California attorney you have the same options any other attorney does but definitely not Big Law. Go get some specialized training post qualification and you will be ahead of 90% of ABA grads in tjhe knowledge department.

6. You will have less prestige among other attorneys. You are not at all among the elite. This is the social and professional "relation back doctrine." See Disadvantage No. 4.

Well that's for sure.

7. Unless you have the experience mentioned in Advantage No. 8, you're very likely to end up in criminal law if you make it all the way. I don't know the stats, and this isn't absolute. But I would risk five bucks I'm right.

Criminal law, Workers Comp. Social Secuirty Disability, Family Law, Real estate law are all abosolutely great places to start your practice.  If you want to represent General Motors or an Insurance company you went to the wrong school. if you want to work with actual people you did the right thing. if you want to be some body slave to a law partner go to an ABA school.

8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.

true, the extra year is likely an edge in passing the bar.

9. Statistically, your odds of passing the bar on the first try are only 50-50. This bears some discussion. I do not believe that this has anything to do with getting a J.D. from a CBA school. It goes to the average academic abilities of CBA students taken as a whole. The A/B students who make it through a CBA education are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and would do just fine in an ABA school. And they tend to pass the bar on the first try. However, the other half of the CBA bar candidates who graduated with a C average have much greater difficulty passing the CA bar exam, which is well established as being one of the hardest bar exams in the country.

Right, depends on the individual has nothing to do with the school.

Duncanjp

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »
8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.

true, the extra year is likely an edge in passing the bar.

This is not borne out by the pass-fail statistics, Jon. Part-time law students fail the bar in substantially greater numbers than full-time ABA students. There is doubtless much to be said about the focus that full-time students give to their bar preparation versus part-timers, who are holding down full-time jobs and fitting study in where they can. What gets overlooked by strictly-ABA advocates, however, is the extraordinary drive, energy, and exceptional ability that it requires of a person to attend an evening law school and then to pass the bar while holding down a career position. Show me somebody who can do that and I'll show you somebody who could waltz through an ABA program one-handed. Yet one cannot say, "Show me any ABA student and I'll show you somebody who could hold down a career position AND make it through evening law school." The proof here is only in the doing.

That said, it's gratifying to note that several of my company attorneys have observed that they Do recognize and appreciate this. But the fact remains, state-accredited schools are working class schools. You can have a rewarding, satisfying legal career, and you may be just as skillful in your practice as any Harvard graduate, but you'll always be a blue collar attorney.

jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2012, 03:08:24 PM »
What is a blue collar attorney exactly? I work in shorts and a t-shirt most of the time.

Duncanjp

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2012, 04:45:26 PM »
What is a blue collar attorney exactly? I work in shorts and a t-shirt most of the time.

You won't appear in court like that. And I doubt you'll be allowed to dress like that during business hours working even for a small law firm. But if you're going to hang your own shingle outside your door, dress the way you want. If you feel you will be taken just as seriously by your clients, your employer, your opponents at law, and society at large, do it. It's your career.

jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2012, 06:32:58 PM »
But sorry what is a blue collar attorney, is that an attorney who represents people instead of big corporations?

Shingle outside of door?  That is so 1991.  Website on Internet is where its at.

Duncanjp

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2012, 07:00:49 PM »
Carry on, bud. My crim pro final is looming and I've got work to do. Best of luck with your studies.  :)

jonlevy

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Re: Where can you get admitted with California DL degree
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »
Good luck.