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Thane Messinger

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 06:48:16 PM »
http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it

Falcon -

An interesting article, as always.  The challenge comes in separating the general from the personal.  There is, too, the self-interest among the law school professoriate to see the world rather differently than do their students.  Not wrong, but different.

For all, there are numerous posts and sites on law jobs and on student loan burdens, and both sides of the pragmatic equation should be considered with genuine seriousness--even if one is "destined" to the law.  What no one should do is to fall into law school.

For those who are inclined toward military service, consider serving (whether or not as a JAG officer).  The educational benefits are tremendous, and the vocational, leadership, and personal boosts will be as well.  Search in the respective services' recruitment sites for specialty areas; if you take and pass the various tests and receive a set "job," that can make a tour very productive indeed.  Best of all, you can work your way into a law or other professional or graduate degree and, likely, graduate debt-free.

Thane.

bigs5068

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 06:51:46 PM »
Well this article seems to be on point with everything I have ever thought. Good find!

Hamilton

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »
Nando seems to disagree with this gentleman...

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2011/10/profiles-in-deliberate-misinformation.html

A lot of these articles do seem to come from T3/T4 faculty and professors since they will suffer from a law school backlash.

bigs5068

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 12:52:59 PM »
Well that guy will disagree with anyone someone could come to his house hand him a job and he would insult them. People like that are hopeless and if they were born into the Kennedy Family they would find something to whine about.

This whole department of labor department 44,000 graduates for 98,000 jobs in a that doesn't sound that bad. I don't know how much stock to put in it anyways it is a government "projection" government predictions haven't been very accurate in the past so why consider it now. Even if it is an accurate projection show one other profession that is screaming we need more people. I can't think of one I have friends in about 20 different professions who all say how competitive it is pilots, nursing, architects, firefighters, teachers, etc all say man it is so hard find a job right now. Why the population is bigger than ever and global travel is much easier so many foreign students and professionals take jobs as well. Law is probably less competitive than a lot of other fields not that many people have J.D.'s it is still very competitive and far from a guarantee of anything, but this blog poster is a perpetual whiner and people of his/her elk will always find something to complain about.


I just looked for pilots, architects, lawyers, and nurses. Lawyers were in the middle as far as growth 13%. Pilots at the lowest growing 8%. Nurses were growing at the highest rate 22%.

Here is the info

Pilots
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm#outlook

Lawyers
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm

Nurses
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm

Architect
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos038.htm

Lawyers don't really have it better or worse than these 4 professions I randomly choose. Nursing looks better, but many of my friends tell who work in hospitals say what happens with Obamacare will make a drastic difference how true that is or not nobody knows it is what they are "projecting" so maybe it will be a lot worse if and when the Supreme Court ever decides the issue.

Lawyers don't have it any better or worse than anybody else if third tier reality would look outside of his whinny bubble maybe he/she would realize that.

jack24

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 05:01:54 PM »
Bigs:
When I started Law School my T2 school posted that the median income 9 months after graduation was 68,000 per year. (The mean for the class of 2010 is $70,400)

In the last month I have received 5 job offers (finally making some good progress).  I'm far above the median in terms of class rank, I have a lot of job experience, and I've networked like crazy.  Here are the offers:
1: $38,000 with no benefits
2: $51,000 with benefits
3. 60% of money actually collected
4. $46,000 with benefits
5. $20 per hour actually billed

I applied for a great job with a state government that paid $65,000.  They received more than 150 applications and interviewed nearly twenty people.  I got in the top 5.

I applied for a job at a firm in a small city paying $60,000. They received 40 applications in two days, interviewed 12 people and made a decision within a week.  I was the second choice and I lost to a man who was licensed in two states, had three years experience, and a book of business.

A applied for a paralegal position at a downtown firm.  They reported that more than half of their applicants had passed the bar exam.

So while I believe you make some great points in your analysis, I still stand behind the statement that if money is your motivation for being a lawyer, it's statistically likely that you won't be happy with your choice, at least in the short term after law school.

Other segments of the economy are probably worse, but many of those don't include a requirement of three years worth of opportunity cost and student debt.

bigs5068

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 05:31:36 PM »
I am behind you 100% I don't think you should go to law school for the money. I don't think you should undertake any type of educational undertaking for the money, because no job can guarantee you a lot of money. Law school is also likely one of the worst short term investments, but a great long term investment. In reality there are not that many people that have a J.D. and passed the bar. Granted there is when everyone is competiing for a job right when they graduate, but the more experience you get the easier it becomes. As you have seen you now have several offers and you are a year out? right? See where you are 5 years by then you probably won't even posting on this board you will be further along and likely not worrying about it. However, yea it sucks getting out with a 100k + in debt and having fierce competition for entry level jobs, but I don't know many lawyers that have said it was much different for them than it is now. Law has always sucked to start out in there is a lot to know and when your a first year person you don't and can't know it all.

Again the same is pretty much every true for every profession. Every pilot has to jump through a bunch of hoops before they fly their first commercial flight. A doctor has to go to through a bunch of hoops to do their first surgery. A lawyer has to go through a bunch of hoops to do their first trial.  Nobody anywhere starts at the top. Even Lebron James had to pay his rookie dues and bring donuts to practice. He also had to take the Collective Bargaining Agreement and made 4.5 million per year obviously not chump change, but now that he has been in the league for 7+ years he is making serious money. It takes time, which is what I don't think students in any profession seem to understand. Even with time, hard work, etc it may never work out. It is hard to become a millionaire always has been always will be.

Hamilton

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 11:42:33 AM »
Spot on here except the last part.  For many it is also a horrible long-term investment.  A bad short-term investment can evolve into a bad long-term investment when one cannot make the loan payments and interest keeps accruing - the cute little kitten grows to be a ravenous lion.  Thats what the scamblggers are railing against, the fact that many are putting themselves in a financial hole that they cannot recover from, and the law school/higher ed machine are enabling and encouraging it (and this guys article is part of that encouragment).

I am behind you 100% I don't think you should go to law school for the money. I don't think you should undertake any type of educational undertaking for the money, because no job can guarantee you a lot of money. Law school is also likely one of the worst short term investments, but a great long term investment.

Interesting quote from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics on the legal profession - note the artful use of the word "keen."

"Job prospects. Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year. Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal training is an asset, but not normally a requirement—for example, administrative, managerial, and business positions in banks, insurance firms, real estate companies, government agencies, and other organizations. Employment opportunities are expected to continue to arise in these organizations at a growing rate.

As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs. This service allows companies to hire lawyers on an “as-needed” basis and permits beginning lawyers to develop practical skills."

bigs5068

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 12:54:28 PM »
It can be a bad long term investment for sure. It is not for everybody that is for sure and the reality is in 5-10 years your either going to be a good lawyer or your not. At that point your school is no longer responsible. If your good you are likely to earn something if your not good then people won't want you. The law is something you can see clear cut results in no matter what your area your in. If your a litigator you either win trials or you don't. If you draft wills they go smoothly or they don't. If you write contracts that always end up in litigation then that speaks to your abilities. It goes on and on the more screwups you have the less people will want from you. The more successes you have the more people will want from you.

As far as the KEEN competition all the jobs I listed except for nursing say job prospects will be competitive.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos038.htm
A growing number of students are graduating with architectural degrees and some competition for entry-level jobs can be anticipated. Competition will be especially keen for jobs at the most prestigious architectural firms as prospective architects try to build their reputation. Prospective architects who have had internships while in school will have an advantage in obtaining positions after graduation. Opportunities will be best for those architects who are able to distinguish themselves from others with their creativity.

Architecture graduates may face competition, especially for jobs in the most prestigious firms.
About 21 percent of architects are self-employed—almost 3 times the proportion for all occupations.

In recent years, some architecture firms have outsourced the drafting of construction documents and basic design for large-scale commercial and residential projects to architecture firms overseas. This trend is expected to continue and may have a negative impact on employment growth for lower-level architects and interns who would normally gain experience by producing these drawings.

Pilots http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm
Pilots attempting to get jobs at the major airlines will face strong competition, as those firms tend to attract many more applicants than the number of job openings. Applicants also will have to compete with laid-off pilots for any available jobs. Pilots who have logged the greatest number of flying hours using sophisticated equipment typically have the best prospects. For this reason, military pilots often have an advantage over other applicants.

Nurses http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm

Although faster employment growth is projected in physicians' offices and outpatient care centers, RNs may face greater competition for these positions because they generally offer regular working hours and more comfortable working environments.

It does say the growth prospects are excellent to work in inner city hospitals in off hours etc, but I am guessing there are as many nursing students that want that gig as law studnents want to document review.

These are the only 3 careers I looked up and I am sure if I continue the Bureau will say everyone faces competition. Finding a job you like, that pays well, etc is hard no matter what your doing. Law students are the only people that have to fight for jobs if these bloggers etc ever looked outside their law school bubble they would realize that.

justanothersucker

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Re: Why Law School is Still Worth It...
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 01:22:42 PM »
pilots, the bus drivers who can call themselves "Capt".

I bet innercity busdrivers are needed right now too. Anyone want to drop out of lawschool and go apply?