Online Law School for Wisconsin Bar

[fortook]

sollicitus, are you ipscientific?

The "current regime" is based on job markets and alum base, which in turn is indirectly based on ranking or reputation.  Online schools have none of that stuff, by design.  There are some non-ABAs that do, I have known successful attorneys who went to non-ABAs, but never anyone who went to an online school (at least who admitted it or was working in a non legal field).

[fortook]

jonlevy, forgive me, I'm too lazy to look it up, but didn't you post something about an online grad who applied to practice in Mass?

The OP has a lot of research to do on even the possibility, not just the likelihood of what s/he plans on doing, but that link might be helpful.

[sollicitus]

sollicitus, are you ipscientific?

The "current regime" is based on job markets and alum base, which in turn is indirectly based on ranking or reputation.  Online schools have none of that stuff, by design.  There are some non-ABAs that do, I have known successful attorneys who went to non-ABAs, but never anyone who went to an online school (at least who admitted it or was working in a non legal field).

I was refering to the comments made on bar pass rates.

[fortook]

Because people get less out of online classes than in person classes?  Because people doing online programs are juggling more, thereby focusing less on law?  Because people that are online often cannot network as much because the schools are online and the jobs are not, thereby having less practical experience?  Because no one respects online schools, they cannot get useful clerkships or internships?  Because many (not all but some, ex. Novus) of the online schools are just in it for a pay day, not educating or training future lawyers and do not care about their bar passage rates?

All of the above are consequences of online schools lacking any uniform legitimacy.

I don't know amigo, its all connected.  Distilling the situation down so specifically may not be possible when discussing all online schools.  What is Novus' bar passage rate? What is Taft's? Or CSL?

[jonlevy]

If the ABA did not discriminate against online degree holders by locking them out of 95% of state jurisdictions, the pass rate would be higher because more competent students would opt for online degrees.  I get a kick out of all those sanctimonious law school graduates who suffered through endless boring and pointless lectures on Property law and Civil Procedure who claim online degrees worthless.  In the end, most students get by memorizing outlines and taking Barbri.

[sollicitus]

If the ABA did not discriminate against online degree holders by locking them out of 95% of state jurisdictions, the pass rate would be higher because more competent students would opt for online degrees.  I get a kick out of all those sanctimonious law school graduates who suffered through endless boring and pointless lectures on Property law and Civil Procedure who claim online degrees worthless.  In the end, most students get by memorizing outlines and taking Barbri.

So are argument is that online grads do worse being they are not as good of students and the ABA steals away all the "competent students" (as you word it)?

If all that passing took was memorizing outlines and taking Barbris then why don't the onliners do the same thing and do just as fine? (It that is really all it is)

Plus come on, T4's take people with the same GPA's and LSAT score's that most online students could get. They somehow do better on the bar when compared to online grads as well. So the "competent student" absorbtion argument can't be 100% definitive either.

No one is saying the degree is "worthless" but there clearly are flaws that need to be worked out before anyone can expect them to get the respect equal to an oncampus education.

On campus non-ABA tend to do worse on the bar compared to ABA as well (albeit not as much as online) so it's not just an online issue.

Is your argument that if the ABA had online school they would be ok (it seems to be) Isn't that saying more about a pro-ABA argument than against it?

Personally I have taken undergrad both online and on campus, and the argument that on campus is somehow less than off campus is a pretty weak argument. I even tried a few DETC classes and despite the argument that they are "equal" to regional school education, I can tell you first had. They are not. Open book self paced stuff is not the same. It would be nice if it was, but it is not. Now factor in that most online JD is DETC at best (many not even that).

If online lawschools cared about their students and wanted to get the ABA to eventually approve on line courses, they need to clean house first. ABA has it's flaws, but bar exam results don't lie. We aren't talking about any conspiracies or near misses we are talking about comparing a vast majority passing to a vast majority failing (both the schools degrees and then latter the bar exam itself) And that is comparing the best of the online to the worst of the ABA.

[jonlevy]

Online schools cannot attract "good prospects" because online degree holders are locked out of at least 95% of all bars.  The situation will only change when ABA law schools start offering online JDs like many regionally accredited bricks and mortar schools do now with graduate degrees.   The ABA schools could then get rid of over paid law professors and hire adjuncts and in theory the cost to the student would drop.

[sollicitus]

Online schools cannot attract "good prospects" because online degree holders are locked out of at least 95% of all bars.  The situation will only change when ABA law schools start offering online JDs like many regionally accredited bricks and mortar schools do now with graduate degrees.   The ABA schools could then get rid of over paid law professors and hire adjuncts and in theory the cost to the student would drop.

So it is entirely the fault of the students and not the schools and/or style of teaching?

[jonlevy]

With the exception of Concord which is owned by Washington Post Corp., the online law schools are low budget affairs.  You cannot compare them to ABA law schools.

Students from online schools who pass the bar would usually have done just fine at an ABA school.  The ones who wash out, would have washed out of an ABA school too.

Online law (and previously correspondence) schools are limited to California - the California Bar is unique in many respects and will always remain so.

[sollicitus]

If they are all so bad, why not shut them all down and require any new ones have (at a minimum) regional accrediting like Concord and require things like real time chat and other aspects found at more respected online schools like UOP with set due dates and timed online exams with real time mandatory seminars with Q&A?

If they required all that, it might make people give it more respect and be a better sell to ABA.

First step if that is the goal is to shut down 99% of what is out there and rebuild from the ashes.