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Was going to Iraq by the usa a good idea?

yes
 6 (54.5%)
no
 5 (45.5%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: was going to Iraq a good idea?  (Read 9250 times)

fortook

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2012, 11:55:27 PM »
I already miss talk like a pirate day :(.

Chuck, I like some of you approach and its is definitely better than killing people, but they aren't like us.  Middle Eastern problems need to be solved with Middle Eastern means.  They aren't like us, as much as we think they should be and as perfect as we think we are. 

Kill your air conditioners. Man, do I hate, hate AC. :)
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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2012, 11:04:48 PM »
Well, you fully grasped that it is a Caribbean thing...and aye tink dat is da first time ya mentioned dat. ;)
And you'd be right.  Aye make money off of my writing; with that understanding what rationale supports the notion that aye write with my usual style?

Make sense now?

Aye agree with you on mesopoetamia and our tribal oriented sisters and brothers in the mid east...
Troubles they have, but the dictators affect and effect relationships with other nations...we are all directly and/or indirectly connected...sometimes the USA has to get involved...
...when mass graves are dug by a dictator or regime though, yes aye am a warmonger when it comes to taking out the ones who initiated the digging...so, perhaps aye am a warmonger....

So?

...aye wouldn't use caps either but because of "convenience" and our modern homunculi mentality many computers try to automatically spell and provide vocabulary options....
...aye don't mind some of it because it assists with anonymity...

....aye have NO interest in video games...played pong years ago, though...did think "raiders of lost ark" video game was mildly amusing years ago...

Now, aye bet you understood all of the above.

...some of my friends know my logic games and word tricks and obfuscating manner; they won't play poker because even aye don't know how aye will play a hand...aye am a confounding human being...so aye'm sorry that aye can be confusing or out of touch to you, my man.

...confusing? Not to me.



Fortook:  If you spend much time trying to have intelligent discussions with and try to reason with BlueWarrior, you will very quickly have the urge to

He's a war monger, and probably so from spending too much time playing violent video games. 

Granted, he has made a few good points in this thread, seems to have the ability to read news stories and likes the people in northern Iraq.  The Kurds in Northern Iraq got majorly shafted by Saddam and almost completely exterminated so it is good that they are now living without constant fear of getting gassed.

The Hussein regime was bad news for pretty much everybody in that area of the world, including Saddam himself with the way it worked out for him, his family and cohorts in the end. Bummer for them, but luckily that is what typically ends up happening eventually to evil, greedy and violent people.

Was it worth the $$ spent and lives lost to try to help bring peace to the middle east and encourage the governments and populations of people in the area to behave in more civilized, less violent ways?  I don't have an answer to that question. Maybe in a few decades or centuries historians might have some good facts/information/news to publish and write about regarding that area of the world.  A boy can hope and dream!!

Political leaders and military forces from all around what is called the western world and other more evolved countries/areas have been trying to intervene diplomatically and otherwise with force to try and figure out how to create some semblance of peace, civility and to provide and establish basic daily living conditions (daily needs: housing, food, plumbing, medical care, etc.) for the populations of people in the region for well over a few hundred years without success. 

Without looking up a historical reference, if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure the violence, strife, hatred, killing, far from humanitarian behavior activities, sectarian violence due to biases and other prejudiced fueled and other uncivilized behaviors have been going on in the region for thousands of years. 

Nobody has been able to fix it no matter which approaches they have attempted.  It's up to the people and leaders of those areas to work it out. 

I've got a few simple ideas about how to pave the way to make those areas less violent and the inhabitants being able to live decent lives daily.

#1:  Affordable housing with air conditioning.
If I had to live in and walk around in sometimes up to 130F temperatures in the desert just to find something to eat each day while the leaders are building lavish palaces and having fun shooting people and blowing things up I'd be pretty pissed off too. 

#2: [Related to #1] Leaders, use some of that $$ you get from selling the oil you keep pumping out of the earth below you to fund idea #1.  If you do that you won't miss a dime and will still have plenty of $$ for everything you desire.

#3: Better infrastructure, use some of the oil $$ revenue to improve that stuff, you've got plenty of land to develop things on.  Dubai, Saudi Arabia and a few other places are doing a good job of that on small plots of land in the area.

#4: Education.  Build more schools, colleges, etc. and educate the populations with stuff beyond stupid regime designed propaganda.  Better educated people tend to behave more civilly, rationally and less violently. 

#5: Westernized countries, stop selling weapons, artillery, ammunition and military warfare gear to unstable countries in the region.

#6: Just chill, be cool, and stop loving the AKs, RPGs and other weapons so much.  Keep them out of the hands of the young uneducated, possibly brainwashed kids.

My main view about what to do about the situations now from a USA/Western Country perspective is containment. Make sure no crazies with bombs or whatever weapons to kill get out of the countries/get over here or into other countries to use or detonate them, don't sell them/let them have any more weaponry, and then just let them work it out among themselves for now.

My short form principle:  More education, less weapons/artillery for killing and violence.  Educated people tend to behave and interact with others in much more civilized, less violent ways.

Maybe NATO or whoever else should drop-ship a bunch of books/instruction manuals along with some MREs into the bad regions.

/end_rant

PS:  Blue, RE: your post on the previous page where you criticized me. You are the one that is confused, not me.  I'm happy that you at least cut down the pirate talk for now. Maybe where you live people use aye instead of I, it sounds like local Caribbean Islands slang, but it is bad English to use on an American law school discussion forum, especially when you are talking about and wanting to have discussion about USA politics/policies/actions/elections/etc. 

.
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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2012, 02:42:31 AM »
"The Kurds in Northern Iraq got majorly shafted by Saddam and almost completely exterminated so it is good that they are now living without constant fear of getting gassed.

The Hussein regime was bad news for pretty much everybody in that area of the world, including Saddam himself with the way it worked out for him, his family and cohorts in the end. Bummer for them, but luckily that is what typically ends up happening eventually to evil, greedy and violent people.

Was it worth the $$ spent and lives lost to try to help bring peace to the middle east and encourage the governments and populations of people in the area to behave in more civilized, less violent ways?  I don't have an answer to that question. Maybe in a few decades or centuries historians might have some good facts/information/news to publish and write about regarding that area of the world"


                        --- quote from chuck


...aye like what you wrote here...well put.
but you don't have to wait dcades...because your first line is right..it's happening today.
If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
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  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2012, 02:58:32 AM »
I already miss talk like a pirate day :(.

Chuck, I like some of you approach and its is definitely better than killing people, but they aren't like us.  Middle Eastern problems need to be solved with Middle Eastern means.  They aren't like us, as much as we think they should be and as perfect as we think we are. 

Kill your air conditioners. Man, do I hate, hate AC. :)

Solved by middle eastern means?  Yikes.  What have they been doing for the past thousands of years? Or they got some extreme means modern day...cut off a hand? Or stoning?  Stoning?....even Jesus lived a thousand years ago and he was not a strong advocate for stoning...that stoning shite as been a'round for a while...many of their laws like ours stem fom scripture...stem from kohran and are harsh by our standards...tough call to me to not communicate with genuine interest and get immersed as we have business and sometimes family ties with the middle east...

...aye am worried how an Arab uprising in saud Arabia would play out...

Aye somewhat agree with you about the air conditioners....we should discuss this in another thread....perhaps if we present ac's to people for free--- and give them a choice to keep it or give it back...
Chuck might be onto something with this...and aye am only half smiling...silly? Or a great idea?
If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare

fortook

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2012, 11:59:46 AM »
Hmmm. We may have found a major point of contention between our differing points of view: 

I not only trust them to govern themselves, but to do so responsibly. If they do not do so responsibly, it is not my place to force them to be like me- to me, its a respect issue.  I don't necessarily think we are better than them.  To me the question is: why would I? I wouldn't have supported the crusades either and the modern middle eastern invasions are way to similar- just replace the word "Christianity" with "Democracy" and everything else meshes.  Too creepy an historical similarity for me.

Blue, you seem to feel the opposite: it is our responsibility to force them to behave responsibly, as a matter of decency, regardless off the cost or disrespect.  To "help" them by making them like us.
 
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Julie Fern

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2012, 01:20:19 AM »
kurds = turds.

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2012, 12:22:01 AM »
Are you writing about dictators and regimes or people? Because aye think that regimes are the problem...not the people. Aye trust people to govern themselves but regimes like the one in north korea are not people governing themselves.

See the difference?

We have Not close ties with n. korea so diplomacy would have no human rights commentary on the treatment of their people. And 0 influence over their people directly or indirectly. ;)
We have ties with china so diplomacy often has human rights issues wind in with it's business and political discourse...and human rights issues become cultural/media advertisement. Even human behavior becomes a part of scrutiny by another culture.  Didn't the chinese government send out the signal to cut down on public spitting during the 2007 olympics ?  Although the initiative was executed by the chinese, doubtful there wasn't some western influence at play..
There is also a universal concern for women's rights which bombards governments in which we have business and political ties..we chastise their lack of concern and continue dealing until a dictatorship cracks ...or a regime cracks or crosses the line...the gassing of people should be a clue to a regime crossing the line...yet while progress is made On women's rights issues and basic human rights it's a long way to go...nations of the world are intertwined on many levels in diplomatic and business dealings...

we can't help rub off a little of our chinese brothers and sisters...we also can't help rubbing off on those who got rid of ali, mubarak, and quadafi---/we helped with getting the last mentioned.\

The west rubs off on the middle east and we influence them one way or another...it happens not through force but an idea that they want the regime gone and a different quality of life...aye don ' t care...call it enculturation; call it diplomatic intercourse...but eventually we all have to stop the habit of spitting in public places...and every now and then until it is a perfect world---some dictators will step down---some will hang--then someone will set themselves on fire to make a point about police cruelty in tunisia.
and some people think a revolution is born...at this point they are doing it utilizing their own methods..so aye think we are in agreement on that.

Hmmm. We may have found a major point of contention between our differing points of view: 

I not only trust them to govern themselves, but to do so responsibly. If they do not do so responsibly, it is not my place to force them to be like me- to me, its a respect issue.  I don't necessarily think we are better than them.  To me the question is: why would I? I wouldn't have supported the crusades either and the modern middle eastern invasions are way to similar- just replace the word "Christianity" with "Democracy" and everything else meshes.  Too creepy an historical similarity for me.

Blue, you seem to feel the opposite: it is our responsibility to force them to behave responsibly, as a matter of decency, regardless off the cost or disrespect.  To "help" them by making them like us.
If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare

fortook

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2012, 01:19:15 PM »
^^ exactly, you seem to want them to behave like us- with our values and our perspective.  Saying you know better than them who rules them?

Not that its directly relevant, but you argument would hold more weight if: 1) the majority of the population asked the US to invade, 2) the majority, not one small group that wants a regime change, but most people want us there or 3) the majority, over %50 of the population, not less than %10 do not want the US to leave.

As it turned out, other than a few minority groups who were being abused, no one wanted the US to invade, over through the government or stay after the conquest was complete.

Not even mention why we should be pissed about it- THE GOVERNMENT LIED TO US and killed 100,000s of people in the process.
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sollicitus

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #148 on: February 28, 2012, 01:45:49 PM »
^^ exactly, you seem to want them to behave like us- with our values and our perspective.  Saying you know better than them who rules them?

Not that its directly relevant, but you argument would hold more weight if: 1) the majority of the population asked the US to invade, 2) the majority, not one small group that wants a regime change, but most people want us there or 3) the majority, over %50 of the population, not less than %10 do not want the US to leave.

As it turned out, other than a few minority groups who were being abused, no one wanted the US to invade, over through the government or stay after the conquest was complete.

Not even mention why we should be pissed about it- THE GOVERNMENT LIED TO US and killed 100,000s of people in the process.

The jews were a minority in 1940's Europe.

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Re: was going to Iraq a good idea?
« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2012, 05:59:35 PM »
Are you writing about dictators and regimes or people? Because aye think that regimes are the problem...not the people. Aye trust people to govern themselves but regimes like the one in north korea are not people governing themselves.

See the difference?

We have Not close ties with n. korea so diplomacy would have no human rights commentary on the treatment of their people. And 0 influence over their people directly or indirectly. ;)
We have ties with china so diplomacy often has human rights issues wind in with it's business and political discourse...and human rights issues become cultural/media advertisement. Even human behavior becomes a part of scrutiny by another culture.  Didn't the chinese government send out the signal to cut down on public spitting during the 2007 olympics ?  Although the initiative was executed by the chinese, doubtful there wasn't some western influence at play..
There is also a universal concern for women's rights which bombards governments in which we have business and political ties..we chastise their lack of concern and continue dealing until a dictatorship cracks ...or a regime cracks or crosses the line...the gassing of people should be a clue to a regime crossing the line...yet while progress is made On women's rights issues and basic human rights it's a long way to go...nations of the world are intertwined on many levels in diplomatic and business dealings...

we can't help rub off a little of our chinese brothers and sisters...we also can't help rubbing off on those who got rid of ali, mubarak, and quadafi---/we helped with getting the last mentioned.\

The west rubs off on the middle east and we influence them one way or another...it happens not through force but an idea that they want the regime gone and a different quality of life...aye don ' t care...call it enculturation; call it diplomatic intercourse...but eventually we all have to stop the habit of spitting in public places...and every now and then until it is a perfect world---some dictators will step down---some will hang--then someone will set themselves on fire to make a point about police cruelty in tunisia.
and some people think a revolution is born...at this point they are doing it utilizing their own methods..so aye think we are in agreement on that.

Hmmm. We may have found a major point of contention between our differing points of view: 

I not only trust them to govern themselves, but to do so responsibly. If they do not do so responsibly, it is not my place to force them to be like me- to me, its a respect issue.  I don't necessarily think we are better than them.  To me the question is: why would I? I wouldn't have supported the crusades either and the modern middle eastern invasions are way to similar- just replace the word "Christianity" with "Democracy" and everything else meshes.  Too creepy an historical similarity for me.

Blue, you seem to feel the opposite: it is our responsibility to force them to behave responsibly, as a matter of decency, regardless off the cost or disrespect.  To "help" them by making them like us.

yep, human rights issues pretty much come down to public spitting.

thanks clearing that up, twit.