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Author Topic: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings  (Read 2756 times)

sollicitus

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »
I meant where you were compared to where you are. (the big firm vs the not the big firm)

I don't doubt that you did at least as much if not more work than solo's I was just pointed out that you had responded to comment on the " I tried the solo thing for 6 months and didn't like it" part.

As for the services for not paying rent, did you make sure to include that in your end of year income? (FMV of rent deferred in exchange for services rendered) I ask since most know they should, and yet most do not.

It wasn't an official agreement or "this for that" ... it was just a situation in which this guy (and the other solos in the office) were being nice to me as a young, new attorney and letting me use the space for free.  Therefore, I just felt like I SHOULD help out if they needed assistance drafting something or doing some quick research.  I didn't get into anything that complicated on my taxes, if that's what you mean.

If you're just asking for me to compare different places I've worked, I've never worked at a "small" firm.  I was a law clerk at a medium (around 20+ attorneys) firm.  The office where the solos were was just a small office with 3 solo practitioners sharing space.  It was a nice atmosphere, and I liked those people a lot, but I was barely making any money and it was stressful to feel so lost / clueless about everything.

I DID try the solo thing and didn't like it - even with as much help and support I had while doing it.  I couldn't imagine just trying to do it on my own as a new attorney w/o any mentors.  I just commented b/c it's ridiculous when people say "why don't new attorneys just go solo!?" ... it's absurd.  It's far too difficult for a majority of new attorneys (and can be a real disservice to your clients since you know so little about practical legal practice) ... and it is often NOT lucrative at all.  Yeah, it's something you can kind of limp along doing while trying to find another job and it looks a lot better than doing NOTHING, but I wouldn't say it's just a simple solution to the legal job market and we attorneys are just too dumb to figure that out - lol.

No argument that better experienced people do better jobs. Thats for sure.

The whole tit for tat argument on the rent issue would have bombed in tax court if you were on the taking end of the stick, but like I said most don't and most don't get called out on it, plus SOL, so unless C&F got up on you (and they won't) eh, I guess.

Didn't you school require externships and clinics to get experience though? Did you really enter without any real world practice other than (the self contained-bubbly boy-joke) that is called moot court or law review?

Jhuen_the_bird

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »
No argument that better experienced people do better jobs. Thats for sure.

The who tit for tat argument on the rent issue would have bombed in tax court if you were on the taking end of the stick, but like I said most don't and most don't get called out on it, plus SOL, so unless C&F got up on you (and they won't) eh, I guess.

Didn't you school require externships and clinics to get experience though? Did you really enter without any real world practice other than (the self contained-bubbly boy-joke) that is called moot court or law review?

I barely made any money last year.  The tax man is not after me. :)  I was VERY honest on my taxes, though - much more than I could have been.  I know several solos who outright lie in order to get their tax bill lower (i.e. making up "contract employees" they paid under $600 so that they can deduct it w/o getting to the minimum for a 1099, lol).

As far as experience goes, I did an externship with a federal judge, clerked at that medium sized firm, did research for a West book and did research for a professor.  I actually came out knowing a lot about certain areas of law and how law firms tend to work / federal court filings.  My experience was relevant for getting a "real" job at a law firm.  These are scarce now, though.  I could have done clinics (related to domestic abuse / criminal law / etc), but I wasn't planning on being a solo and I wasn't planning on doing domestic relations or criminal law (I still haven't done any crim law, and have no desire!) ... and it just didn't work out with scheduling / timing for me to do a clinic.  Even doing those things, though, I still wouldn't have known all the "attorney secrets" that are out there.  I know it sounds silly, but it's totally true.  It's a profession that really needs a training ground, and that is typically what a firm job would have been in a decent economy.  We are just the unlucky ones ... but still kicking!

sollicitus

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 03:42:02 PM »
No argument that better experienced people do better jobs. Thats for sure.

The who tit for tat argument on the rent issue would have bombed in tax court if you were on the taking end of the stick, but like I said most don't and most don't get called out on it, plus SOL, so unless C&F got up on you (and they won't) eh, I guess.

Didn't you school require externships and clinics to get experience though? Did you really enter without any real world practice other than (the self contained-bubbly boy-joke) that is called moot court or law review?

I barely made any money last year.  The tax man is not after me. :)  I was VERY honest on my taxes, though - much more than I could have been.  I know several solos who outright lie in order to get their tax bill lower (i.e. making up "contract employees" they paid under $600 so that they can deduct it w/o getting to the minimum for a 1099, lol).

As far as experience goes, I did an externship with a federal judge, clerked at that medium sized firm, did research for a West book and did research for a professor.  I actually came out knowing a lot about certain areas of law and how law firms tend to work / federal court filings.  My experience was relevant for getting a "real" job at a law firm.  These are scarce now, though.  I could have done clinics (related to domestic abuse / criminal law / etc), but I wasn't planning on being a solo and I wasn't planning on doing domestic relations or criminal law (I still haven't done any crim law, and have no desire!) ... and it just didn't work out with scheduling / timing for me to do a clinic.  Even doing those things, though, I still wouldn't have known all the "attorney secrets" that are out there.  I know it sounds silly, but it's totally true.  It's a profession that really needs a training ground, and that is typically what a firm job would have been in a decent economy.  We are just the unlucky ones ... but still kicking!

I don't doubt your honesty, but the "didnt make much money" part would make zero dif.  If you made $0 but still got free rent for work done, the IRS would still view that as income if it was in front of a tax judge to decide. Good to know they aren't bugging you over it, but they could have.

So would you say the clinics are the better options for those who want to go solo then (compared to the option you took).

What "tricks" have you picked up? I'm assuming all good stuff, anything worth sharing? Why do you think they don't teach them in school?

Jhuen_the_bird

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 03:54:09 PM »
I don't doubt your honesty, but the "didnt make much money" part would make zero dif.  If you made $0 but still got free rent for work done, the IRS would still view that as income if it was in front of a tax judge to decide. Good to know they aren't bugging you over it, but they could have.

So would you say the clinics are the better options for those who want to go solo then (compared to the option you took).

What "tricks" have you picked up? I'm assuming all good stuff, anything worth sharing? Why do you think they don't teach them in school?

I like your black letter tax law enthusiasm, but no one is going to see "got free rent for work done" b/c there is no evidence of that (and it's not even accurate).  I'm not going to get into details, though, lol.

As for "tricks" / lawyer secrets - it's really specific to area.  Like, certain things you don't know about judges' preferences / personalities.  The "extra" paper you have to file so that the clerks won't review your filings and send them back to you with instructions to include _______ sheet (even though that is nowhere to be found on the website / instructions / they won't tell you in advance). 

If you have a desire to go solo there are lots of things you could do differently in law school.  You can take courses in areas of law that are the most feasible for solos (family law / domestic relations, bankruptcy, SSD/SSI / employment law to an extent, etc.)  I would say that doing clinics *probably* would help, but I obviously don't know from experience.  Trial practice, maybe?  Maybe taking courses / experiences regarding negotiations / mediations - for the purpose of settlement.

sollicitus

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 03:59:19 PM »
The judges personalities is for sure a thing you have to pick up along with way (along with other personalities depending on who you commonly have as your OP and if you have to deal with juries, etc, I am sure) No way to beat that but doing it first hand multiple times.

As for the "extra" papers. What type of stuff is that normally? I know the clerks "can't give legal advise" (and they think that is even though the courts have rules that helping give directions on papers is NOT legal advise, they still hide behind the lie due to laziness(etc) ) but I am suprised the schools can't mention those papers in classes like pretrial skills or trial prep.

Can you give a few examples for those of use still novus to it?

Jhuen_the_bird

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 04:03:47 PM »
The judges personalities is for sure a thing you have to pick up along with way (along with other personalities depending on who you commonly have as your OP and if you have to deal with juries, etc, I am sure) No way to beat that but doing it first hand multiple times.

As for the "extra" papers. What type of stuff is that normally? I know the clerks "can't give legal advise" (and they think that is even though the courts have rules that helping give directions on papers is NOT legal advise, they still hide behind the lie due to laziness(etc) ) but I am suprised the schools can't mention those papers in classes like pretrial skills or trial prep.

Can you give a few examples for those of use still novus to it?

Well, one of the local juvenile courts won't let you file requests for production of documents.  The clerks will turn you away.  They just WON'T let you file them.  It's not really "right" ... but it's weird and you feel like an idiot when they treat you like one.  Another example, a certain judge in juvenile court in another court "doesn't do shared parenting" for never-married couples who have a kid.  That's also wrong in the law, but it's sole custody + visitation or nothing in that court.  Also, another judge in domestic relations court actually has a somewhat "secretive" chart that lays out spousal support based on the number of years married.  It's just HIS form (since judges have discretion on that) and it's what he uses to determine the spousal support EVERY time.  It's not on the website and it's a paper that the local attorneys just share with each other.  Weird stuff like that are good examples I can remember!

sollicitus

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 06:53:19 PM »
wow. I guess it varies by district. Interesting stuff.

On the parts other than judges discretion, have you thought about contacting the bar to file complaints or asking clients to do the same if they feel their rights adversely affected?

A judge about 5 years ago "retired" after refusing to allow miscogenation marriages "for the good of future children".  The never married parental rights issue seems very simular to that from a rights perspective.

And anytime anyone "refuses" to do their job, heck start with the bar and then try it in the media. Just get the turds flushed out.

Jhuen_the_bird

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 10:06:36 AM »
wow. I guess it varies by district. Interesting stuff.

On the parts other than judges discretion, have you thought about contacting the bar to file complaints or asking clients to do the same if they feel their rights adversely affected?

A judge about 5 years ago "retired" after refusing to allow miscogenation marriages "for the good of future children".  The never married parental rights issue seems very simular to that from a rights perspective.

And anytime anyone "refuses" to do their job, heck start with the bar and then try it in the media. Just get the turds flushed out.

I think a lot of attorneys end up putting up with this, because in order to pursue something that would require the client to have the money to pay you to do so.  Otherwise, a lot of DR attorneys are already too busy to worry about it.  Some more established attorneys even refuse to take any matters in certain counties, bc of bad experiences!

sollicitus

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 11:50:06 AM »
I believe you on all counts, I'm just saying that if I notice a trend in any place I have to practice (even in a court that dosn't directly affect me-like juvie cout) I will snitch them all out. I hate lazy people, crooked people, dumb/incompetent people,etc.

I will (legally) burn that mother'f'er down. (figurative of course)

If it costs me money, fine. I hate them that much. Let it cost money.
Cheaper than smoking crack and twice the high.

Jhuen_the_bird

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Re: In 2010, twice as many bar passers as job openings
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 01:59:05 PM »
I'm not sure if bar associations can do anything about this, though.  The only real recourse is appealing, and if your client doesn't want to or can't afford it, then you just don't.  I think you're overestimating how much money lawyers have to "just do" things ... Or if you work for a firm, they tell you what to do.  Judges are elected here, so I guess you could campaign against them?  Might not work out, though.