Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million  (Read 3832 times)

FalconJimmy

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 684
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 11:47:20 AM »
They claim 84.7% of people were employed ok fine, but I am paying 150k so maybe I will read this 2 page document to see the real facts. Lets see only 58.1% are employed in law firms maybe I should look to the 10th line of the first page. Then I realize out of these 58.1% people employed in law firms 36.6 of these people are at firms of "unknown size" and that means of the 58% of people working in law firms they only actually know where 22% of the class actually is.. It is a bit misleading, but they area  business putting things in the best light. If you take the time it took me 4 minutes to figure it out you will see they are not hiding anything. aAgain law students take no accountability for themselves and all you have to do is look and you will see the real numbers.   

Biggs, I don't agree with everything you say on here, but your desire to do serious analysis and write about it is impressive.  I highly suspect that you'll do very well in your career.  I hope upon graduation that you stay in touch on these boards and let us know how you're doing.  I am impressed with you and I suspect a lot of other folks are, too.

Morten Lund

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 07:04:03 PM »
I graduated into a dismal market (in 1991)... 

That is part of the key right there.  This is 2011.  If she graduated in 2008, give or take, then she graduated in the beginning/middle of the worst job market the legal profession has seen since 1991 - at least.  She came out at a time when most firms were busy firing associates as quickly as they could - the idea that she had any reasonable expectation of employment in that environment is ludicrous.

... and that is for graduates of any law school.  I graduated a couple of years after Thane, but things were still slow when I was looking for work.  We both went to pretty good law schools, and what Thane describes was not unique.  I certainly did not have employers falling over themselves to hire me (I recall stacking rejection letters up in the windowsill - it was a very tall stack before I got even an inkling of interest).  Several of my classmates graduated without jobs, and many more had the job they could get, not the job they wanted. 

And that was then - things are far worse now, and know that most current graduates from top schools are quite grateful for any job, and cannot afford to be picky.  And if graduates from the top schools are struggling to find jobs, on what planet are T4 graduates likely to get any job other than what they basically create for themselves?

I am not quite ready to call her out for not trying hard enough, but I am more than ready to call her out for being delusional about the job prospects of any fresh law grad today, let alone one from Jefferson.

bigs5068

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 07:31:47 PM »
Has the job market in any field at any time ever been easy for a recent grad? I remember reading books about entering college in 2002 saying how tough the job market is for recent college graduates. Then in 08 when I applied to law school I read the same thing about graduating law school in books etc. The simple fact of the matter is that finding jobs sucks especially when you are starting out. I can't imagine any firm in any profession saying YES a recent graduate with no real experience I can't wait to spend time, money, and effrot in hopes that it will work out.

unknownOne

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 08:23:53 PM »
Am I the only one who visited countless law firm websites while applying for positions in a particular state and wondered where all the new people were when viewing the attorney profiles? (particularly after taking into account how many people take the bar in that state every year?) 




 

bigs5068

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 12:08:50 AM »
There are plenty of recent hires at various firms and I personally know upwards of 20 recent graduates from all levels of school that are working as attorneys. So young associates are being hired, but as Thane & Morten's stories above state it is HARD! Morten went to Yale f***ing Yale and he had a stack of rejection letters.  Thane went to University of Texas and was on Law Review and he had numerous rejections. I am in the top 10% of my class at a low level school and I have been rejected a tremendous amount of times, but I have also been offered several jobs and have had numerous jobs through my academic career. Many of my classmates have had the same experience and so have people I have worked with from Hastings, USF, and Santa Clara. 

The plaintiff here needs a dose of reality and needs to realize TJSL is probably the only place that wants her to succeed and she has burned her bridge. This is just simply absurd and I can't believe someone intelligent enough to pass the bar thought this was a good idea. I am guessing she never had a job prior to going to law school, but I could be wrong. All I know is that when I graduate from law school I know I am on my own and whether I succeed or not is up to ME. I take accountability for my decisions and so does anyone that chooses to attend an ABA school.

jack24

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
    • View Profile
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 12:31:40 AM »
Bigs:
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe you've already addressed this.
I understand that the individual lawsuit seems ludicrous, but don't you think law schools should be accountable if they know full well that their employment numbers are deceptive?  In most states there are twice as many graduates as there are open jobs. Of the national class of 2009 as a whole, only 65% of graduates had jobs requiring bar passage at nine months after graduation. Tuition has nearly doubled in the last ten years even though inflation hasn't been nearly as high. (Not to mention the fact that legal salaries are going down quickly).
Law schools are money makers because they can raise tuition at will due to the ridiculous amount of demand and the class size at most law schools has little to nothing to do with employment prospects.
Not to mention the fact that the 2nd and 3rd year of law school could be easily self taught effectively and more than 75% of law students feel the need to pay a private company $3000 for bar prep after graduation.
Is it so hard for you to imagine that some law schools out there are being at least reckless, if not intentionally deceptive?

I was on law review and moot court and I graduated in the top quarter of a T2.  I had two great internships during law school and neither employer hired any graduates due to the recession.  I have great letters of recommendation and some good contacts, I've applied at countless jobs and sent out hundreds of letters.  I have two part time jobs in the legal market and I've been networking with everyone who will talk to me. (My part time jobs count in the plus column of the employment statistics at my school, by the way).
Now I'm fairly sure I'll have a legal job lined up before the 9 month mark, but I'm easily in the top third of all candidates out there. 

Times are tough, yes, but law schools are laughing all the way to the bank.

(P.S., my relatively small school brings in close to six million dollars a year in tuition after you subtract grants and scholarships.  They could easily self finance student loans with a 0-3% interest rate which would save every student tens of thousands of dollars.)

bigs5068

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 01:58:46 AM »
Bigs:
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe you've already addressed this.
I understand that the individual lawsuit seems ludicrous, but don't you think law schools should be accountable if they know full well that their employment numbers are deceptive?  In most states there are twice as many graduates as there are open jobs. Of the national class of 2009 as a whole, only 65% of graduates had jobs requiring bar passage at nine months after graduation. Tuition has nearly doubled in the last ten years even though inflation hasn't been nearly as high. (Not to mention the fact that legal salaries are going down quickly).
Law schools are money makers because they can raise tuition at will due to the ridiculous amount of demand and the class size at most law schools has little to nothing to do with employment prospects.

Jack,

Short answer is yes and earlier in this thread I put TJSL's employment stats up. They do accurately state the numbers, but in a misleading way. If you take the time to really read into the numbers you will see they are not hiding anything. Are the schools providing misleading information yes, but they are not lying it is puffery just like everything else. Bring in my basketball career here every school that was recruiting me told me about players that made it to the NBA from their school. 99% of college players don't make it, but it sure is nice to hear someone did and they mislead when they recruit you in b-ball. Coke misleads with their taste tests. Gatorade misleads with their nutrition information it is only 50 calories per serving, but a bottle is somehow 2.5 servings this could on all day. You have to take whatever numbers you get from someone trying to sell you something with a grain of salt. Law schools are selling legal education and they are going to put everything they have in their best light.

Then I am sure when you are sending your resumes you exaggerate a bit on your resume as does everybody else. I know I do that I am not lying, but I am selling myself. I highlight my academic awards and A's and from law school and try to not mention the one C- I got in law school. Everybody everywhere is engaging in puffery and law schools are no different.

Now is the price absolutely absurd and I do I think it is a potential anti-trust suit the ABA has engaged in yes. It is ludicrous that law school tuition at every ABA school is going up 2,000 a year and the price is absurd. I hope someone sues them for it and another poster I believe Thane said Massachuetts school of law won a settlement against the ABA for this. In all honesty I think congress should get involved and make law schools do an accounting of what they are spending tuition on. They are releasing federal funds for these loans and should know why a school like Southwestern, Cooley, GGU, Santa Clara, La Verne, etc costs nearly 40,000 per year not including books. There is a real problem there.

However, with all that said I know this scam is going and I choose to enter it. I asked my school for employment info and saw through the B.S. in reality 25% of the class has a full-time paying job and based on recent graduates I know that seems right. My schools claim 87% employment, but that is a croc because unpaid internships count. As you said your part-time jobs count as employment and it is technicallyA you couldn't have your current jobs unless you went to law school.

Your situation is not unique to the legal profession many people starting out have to get part-time jobs slowly work their way up etc. Thane and Morten who have posted went to Yale and University of Texas and they did have some fancy jobs waiting for them. They got rejected and I am sure started their careers slowly. That is what will happen to you more than likely you will do these jobs it will suck for a few years, but then eventually it will work out. However, it may not. That is just the risk anyone takes when going to law school or any form of education and you can't sue when things don't go your way. Education is a gamble and if you bet and lose you deal with it.

Hamilton

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 337
    • View Profile
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 09:04:37 AM »
Law schools are puting out deceptive numbers if they ignore non-responses.  Who do you think is not responding?  Also, people like me skew the numbers - I responded, had my pre-law career, and making decent money.  So my numbers show up as not only employed immediately out of law school, but at a high salary.  My questionaire did not parse whether it was law-related or not.

bigs5068

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 10:56:50 AM »
Yes they are I don't think anybody is disputing that. However, what industry doesn't use misleading facts when trying to sell something. The numbers are misleading and you need to ask in-depth questions about what the employment numbers really mean. When you are going to spend 150k and 3 years of your life you should do more than just take the law schools word for everything. It is basically as big an investment as buying a house and if the seller of the home said it is a great neighborhood, great schools, easy access to the freeway, all these vague statements you probably wouldn't take their word on it. Instead you would go there a few nights see what is like then, check out the school, drive around, and verify the information for yourself. This is what most people do when buying a house and spending 100,000 and generally much more. I don't understand why people think law school is any different.

Then I have to reemphaize the point that law students are not idiots. Anyone at an ABA school is a college graduate, with a decent GPA, they were smart enough to score in the 50th percentile of test takers, which consists of college graduates that have a decent GPA, they got letters of recommendation, and to top it off they write a detailed personal statement about how they deal with adversity, overcome challenges blah blah. If you meet all these requirements you are intelligent enough to be accountable for your decisions and not just blindly take someone's word that is trying to sell you a 150,000 product.

jack24

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
    • View Profile
Re: San Diego law school grad sues her alma mater for $50 million
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2011, 03:54:02 PM »
Bigs:
I think you always make great points, but you said the lawsuit is ridiculous/ludicrous.  I think this is probably somewhere around the median as far as claims go.

There is one more interesting factor.  Law schools are more capable of seeing the future a little better than most students.  For example, consider a student who started law school in 2009.  In 2007, my lawschool had nearly 100 OCI employers, but that number was cut in half in 2008.  The law school had published the 2007 number according to normal standards.  As people were submitting applications in early 2009 based on the 2007 numbers, the law school knew full well that the economy was tanking and the numbers would look very different.

Is there fraud? Misrepresentation?  Reasonable reliance?
Maybe not... but there's still a reasonable claim/argument.