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Author Topic: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School  (Read 6166 times)

B212bb

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2011, 01:44:04 PM »
"I agree with everything you said it will be hard partiucarly if your going to a lower ranked school don't have connections etc. It is also very expensive to go to law school, but so is every other form of education. Architects, Business People, Doctors, Nurses list goes on and on in these professions if you graduate from Harvard will have more opportunities as an architect etc. The same logic you use applies to basically every profession I can think of so what do you do?"

Yes, schooling is increasingly expensive, but law is more expensive than most - particularly when one factors in the return on investment. Further, architects, doctors, nurses, etc. actually learn to do their profession. You do not learn how to be a lawyer in law school. You learn to "think like a lawyer" and get an introduction to legal research and writing -- very important, but this is 1 year out of 3. In addition, there is actually a market for doctors, nurses, etc., there, of course, is a market for lawyers also, but NOT for law graduates -- and therein lies the difference. If you are in debt and cannot find gainful employment, you really are screwed.

"As far as the bureau of labor goes what profession is understaffed right now? America's population is growing at an exponential rate and with the world more connected many foreign people come here taking jobs. As a result finding gainful employment has never been more competitive and it applies to basically everything I can think of not law school alone. Life is hard and it is always hard to get your start and you may never get it."

True. But because it is more competative than ever, going to law school, and taking on loans for it, becomes an ever bigger risk. This would be particularly true for those going to get their JD who do not have a marketable undergraduate degree (e.g. Art, PoliSci). For many, the far better option would be to become a plumber, carpenter, etc. These professions cannot be outsourced or computerized, people need them, and very often plumbers make more money than lawyers and work fewer hours. I'm lucky I am employed, I am lucky my family is affluent, lucky I got a scholarship, and I'm lucky I did well enough on LSAT/GPA to get said scholarship at a fairly good school. Most people are not nearly so lucky. Look, if your passion is law and you actually know what lawyers do for a living, and that most of them hate it, and you still want to do it -- best of luck, I hope it works out. But in all other cases, one should avoid law school, especially in T3 or T4 like its the plague.


bigs5068

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2011, 07:00:54 PM »
You make some good points, but lawyers are harder to outsource than computer programmers or numerous other professions. If you need to appear in court outsourcing becomes impractical and basically impossible if they are not licensed to practice in the jurisdiction. Plumbers, electricians, and so on have competition and many of them don't like their jobs either. I strongly if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school, if you want to be a plumber go that route. Experiencing it first hadn is important and a good idea for law schools would be to require people to work in law firms for 100 hours or something so they can see what goes on. Or at least require you to complete some pre-requiste courses to show your serious about it. The point of people get a B.A. art in being unable to land a job then going to law school is a problem. Something could be done about it.


With that said I don't think law school is that much worse than anything else. I don't think architects get on the job training I find it very unlikely any architect learns how to design and complete a building while in school. I'm sure they draft a blue print go to a construction site etc, just as in law school you draft memos and attend court hearings, but that will not prepare you to handle a case from start to finish. Even medical school you don't graduate then conduct brain surgery you go through a grueling residency making 40-50k and usually the residency is not in a place you want to live. It is competitive and even when you complete your residency you aren't chief of surgery immediately.

The police academcy does not teach you everything you need to be a cop. I could go on and on and that reality is that no form of education can teach you how to do anything, because there is no SINGLE WAY to do anything. If you to doctors they will have their own opinions, because they have different ideas, if you go to a lawyer they will approach cases differently, an architect will design a building differently and so on. Is law school perfect? No it is not. Maybe you should have to learn to file a complaint etc, but my school offers a class like that and I have worked for a few judges and know how to do a few things. Certainly not an expert and I would have a different style than the next person.

Law school is not great, but it is not much different than most forms of education because school can only teach you so much. As for the cost law school really is about the same price as anything else.

http://www.usfca.edu/tuition2011/

Undergrad tuition is 1,280 per unit assume you make 14 units per semester that equals 17,920 full year 35,840

Law school tuition is 38,720 per year.

That is one example granted schools vary.

UCLA architecture degree costs 22,000 per year

UCLA law costs 44,000 per year that is more, but apparently architecture school lasts longer and you need to complete hours before becoming an architect.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_it_take_to_become_an_architect (Don't know how accurate this website is, but I don't imagine you get an architectural degree then people rush you do build a library or skyscraper. This says it takes 18 years to become a full licensed architect again how accurate answers.com is that is

http://www.aia.org/professionals/idp/index.htm details it a little better.

I guess your tuition to get the architecture degree is cheaper, but still a long road at UCLA.

If you went to an in-state law school like University of Florida, Florida International University, etc you would pay less than the UCLA architect. Tuition at Florida Law School is 14k http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Publications/2011OG/aba5812.pdf

You can find cheaper law schools, cheaper architecture, cheaper nursing schools etc, but more or less it is all very very expensive. I don't think law school is much worse off than other forms of higher education. Most of my friends are not in law school I had a lot of friends before I entered and they had many different majors and incurred a lot of educational debt some are doing well some are not. My pilot friends complain the most saying it is almost impossible log hours to fly, which you need to become a pilot. How accurate or inaccurate that is, but it their complaint. I had computer science friends who said it is so competitive, but some people found jobs others didn't. I feel like everyone in whatever profession they are in says how hard it is and does not look outside of their own situation.

I think this is the takeaway:
Higher education is expensive, a college, masters, or doctoral degree does not guarantee you a job, to get a job worth having you are going to compete with lots of people.  When you graduate in any field you are not going to be immediately ready to handle that profession. Someone is either going to mentor you or you will go out on your own and make mistakes, learn from them, and hopefully nothing goes horribly wrong.  This problems are not law school specific they apply pretty much universally to all career fields.

Again I plead if there is a degree that guarantees me a job at graduation, with a high salary, no competition, and is not illegal please tell me. Or write a book about it and make yourself some money. It is something many people want the answer to, but as far as I know there isn't an answer. Education is expensive, getting your career started in anything is difficult, if you start a career it is going to be competitive to keep your business afloat.

if it pleases the court

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 01:35:24 AM »
To B212bb:

I have a liberal arts degree, but I don't want to be a plumber. If I wanted to be a plumber I would not have gone to college in the first place. I think most people would agree that there would be no point.

It sounds like you are a competent person from a good family so I will let you in on a little secret, your affluent parents were not always affluent. At one point, someone in your family stopped raising chickens and started reading law books. That is what most people are doing in law school: making a transition.

You and I hear the about policy arguments every day. Have you thought about the disappointment that entire families would experience if their law student called them to say they want to be a plumber? I think that is what I see many people encouraging students to do, especially if they attend tier 3 or 4 law schools. I think that is unreasonable insensitive to others. No family wants to see their college graduate become a plumber or handyman.

In fact, law school is all about putting down tools such as plunger and replacing it with your brain. You can't attach a monetary amount to an accomplishment such as that unless you have never sat down with family members who are plumbers and carpenters and thought about what it must be like for them each day.

Generally, college graduates are not wired to be plumbers or carpenters or mechanics anymore. A career as an attorney is far better than that of a plumber because attorneys have the ability to make more money and have social status. In law, any client that walks in off the street could be the client whose fee is so large you can retire after the case.

B212bb

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 11:36:32 AM »
"I have a liberal arts degree, but I don't want to be a plumber. If I wanted to be a plumber I would not have gone to college in the first place. I think most people would agree that there would be no point."

Well, what do you want to be? If you want to be a prosecutor - of course go to law school! If you do not know exactly what you want to be and just think you want to be a lawyer -- well, what kind of lawyer? Do you know what most lawyers do? Do you know that most lawyers hate what they do? Do you know what the salary ranges are? My point isn't to discourage, but I do want people to think more carefully about their choices. If you want to, f/e, be a "corporate lawyer", well ok, but I find most people who want to be that (a) don't know corporate lawyers work 90+ hrs/week and have high levels of drug and alcohol abuse and above avg rates of depression and suicide, and (b) how difficult those big corporate jobs are to get in the first place. If you go to Pace, you will not get a corporate job. So if that is your be all and end all, you should probably not accrue debt by going to that school. There are only so many jobs for so many people. With 40,000 graduates per year competing for 10,000 openings, your chances are not that great. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it -- if it is your passion and if you are sure about your prospects and the reality of being an attorney. But far too many of my friends and acquaintances find themselves unemployed or underemployed -- and they went to schools far better than Charlotte or Pace.

"It sounds like you are a competent person from a good family so I will let you in on a little secret, your affluent parents were not always affluent. At one point, someone in your family stopped raising chickens and started reading law books. That is what most people are doing in law school: making a transition."

Its not a little secret to me, my family began poor. I am first generation in North America. My father was however, exceptionally good in math and very entrepeneurial. He was able to turn that into a lucrative career. I am not as smart as he is, I will likely not make his income. That is just life, and genetics. "Most" people in law school are not in T1. Most are also taking on student loans. Most are competing for 10,000 jobs per year in a market where 40,000 JDs graduate per year. It is most certainly not B.A. + J.D. = Profit.


"Have you thought about the disappointment that entire families would experience if their law student called them to say they want to be a plumber? I think that is what I see many people encouraging students to do, especially if they attend tier 3 or 4 law schools. I think that is unreasonable insensitive to others. No family wants to see their college graduate become a plumber or handyman."

Do you think they are any less disappointed when their son or daughter has no job and $150,000+ in debt he/she must pay off but can't? Do you think they are any less disappointed when son or daughter is doing doc review for pittance? Second, what is wrong with being a plumber? It is a fine profession, we need plumbers and mechanics, etc. And, to boot, many plumbers and mechanics make more money than lawyers and work fewer hours. No family wants to see their college grad become a handyman? Sure, they'd prefer to see their son/daughter get a very lucrative and presitgious job -- but only a minority get those jobs (and the minority that does ends up extremely disappointed with it). To make a huge financial decision, one that will impact yourself and your family, based on perceived 'prestige' or on hope, is a dangerous game.

 "A career as an attorney is far better than that of a plumber because attorneys have the ability to make more money and have social status"

Some attorneys have the ability to make more -- some, not all, only some. Many make less. You also need to look at the per hour salary one takes home. An attorney working at a big corporate firm makes $160K to start (in NY and DC). But he/she works 90+ hrs per week and has no vacation (vacation exists in theory only). A public school teacher on Long Island or Westchester, if he/she worked those hours and had next to no vacation days off, would also make that kind of salary, if not higher. For that matter, plenty of plumbers, if they worked such hours, would be in six figure salary range. Most lawyers of course do not work at big firms, or make $160K to start, but in the private sector (public, which I am in is different thankfully), most salaries outside the big firms range from $35,000-60,000, but even then attorneys are working more than 40 hrs per week -- maybe not 90hrs -- but still more than 40, 45. So really, are most attorneys better off than a good mechanic, handyman, or public school teacher? Doesn't look like it.


"In law, any client that walks in off the street could be the client whose fee is so large you can retire after the case."

You are conflating possibility for probability. Yes, in law it is possible that any client that walks in off the street could be the client whose fee is so large you can retire after the case -- but how probable is it? How probable is it that it will happen to you? One may as well spend $150,000 on lotto tickets because, after all, it is possible you can win and be a millionaire over night.



if it pleases the court

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 12:56:27 AM »
"Well, what do you want to be? If you want to be a prosecutor - of course go to law school! If you do not know exactly what you want to be and just think you want to be a lawyer -- well, what kind of lawyer? Do you know what most lawyers do? Do you know that most lawyers hate what they do? Do you know what the salary ranges are? My point isn't to discourage, but I do want people to think more carefully about their choices. If you want to, f/e, be a "corporate lawyer", well ok, but I find most people who want to be that (a) don't know corporate lawyers work 90+ hrs/week and have high levels of drug and alcohol abuse and above avg rates of depression and suicide, and (b) how difficult those big corporate jobs are to get in the first place. If you go to Pace, you will not get a corporate job. So if that is your be all and end all, you should probably not accrue debt by going to that school. There are only so many jobs for so many people. With 40,000 graduates per year competing for 10,000 openings, your chances are not that great. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it -- if it is your passion and if you are sure about your prospects and the reality of being an attorney. But far too many of my friends and acquaintances find themselves unemployed or underemployed -- and they went to schools far better than Charlotte or Pace."

There is a saying that any law you think you would like to practice going into law school is not the same kind of law that you will want to practice coming out of law school. I know you are not trying to discourage people, but you should except that they have made a decision and you cannot convince them otherwise. Pace is a good law school so I don't know why you think there are no corporate jobs available to their graduates. There are other jobs available outside the country so that statistic only tells some of the data. I hope your friends do well in 2012.

"Its not a little secret to me, my family began poor. I am first generation in North America. My father was however, exceptionally good in math and very entrepeneurial. He was able to turn that into a lucrative career. I am not as smart as he is, I will likely not make his income. That is just life, and genetics. "Most" people in law school are not in T1. Most are also taking on student loans. Most are competing for 10,000 jobs per year in a market where 40,000 JDs graduate per year. It is most certainly not B.A. + J.D. = Profit."

I am happy that you have good genetics. So do I. I believe that if you are competitive then someone will offer you a job - it might be abroad. Lawyers are problem solvers and will figure it out. There is always the option to rent a small office and handle simple things like traffic tickets until something better comes along.

"Do you think they are any less disappointed when their son or daughter has no job and $150,000+ in debt he/she must pay off but can't? Do you think they are any less disappointed when son or daughter is doing doc review for pittance? Second, what is wrong with being a plumber? It is a fine profession, we need plumbers and mechanics, etc. And, to boot, many plumbers and mechanics make more money than lawyers and work fewer hours. No family wants to see their college grad become a handyman? Sure, they'd prefer to see their son/daughter get a very lucrative and presitgious job -- but only a minority get those jobs (and the minority that does ends up extremely disappointed with it). To make a huge financial decision, one that will impact yourself and your family, based on perceived 'prestige' or on hope, is a dangerous game."

No, I don't. I think lawyers are problem solvers and will be able to figure out a way to pay down their loans. Family members understand that law school is very expensive. There is nothing wrong with being a plumber. I wish a plumber was here right now. Being a lawyer is a very lucrative and prestigious job.

"Some attorneys have the ability to make more -- some, not all, only some. Many make less. You also need to look at the per hour salary one takes home. An attorney working at a big corporate firm makes $160K to start (in NY and DC). But he/she works 90+ hrs per week and has no vacation (vacation exists in theory only). A public school teacher on Long Island or Westchester, if he/she worked those hours and had next to no vacation days off, would also make that kind of salary, if not higher. For that matter, plenty of plumbers, if they worked such hours, would be in six figure salary range. Most lawyers of course do not work at big firms, or make $160K to start, but in the private sector (public, which I am in is different thankfully), most salaries outside the big firms range from $35,000-60,000, but even then attorneys are working more than 40 hrs per week -- maybe not 90hrs -- but still more than 40, 45. So really, are most attorneys better off than a good mechanic, handyman, or public school teacher? Doesn't look like it."

Actually, they are. Plumbers want to get the job done, go home, and not worry about solving legal problems. Here is what you do not grasp: people who have spent years of their lives earning a four year degree have earned a rightful place in law school. They are seeking a future that includes solving more important problems than the ones a plumber solves. That is what makes them happy. Why can't you understand that it is not all dollars and cents? It is about doing what you enjoy.

"You are conflating possibility for probability. Yes, in law it is possible that any client that walks in off the street could be the client whose fee is so large you can retire after the case -- but how probable is it? How probable is it that it will happen to you? One may as well spend $150,000 on lotto tickets because, after all, it is possible you can win and be a millionaire over night."

I have merely stated a fact and you have ran away with it. How probable is it? It depends on how good of a lawyer you are. Even if you are lucky enough to have such a client, there is no doubt that months of preparation will go into preparing for such a case.

In conclusion, I have enjoyed blogging with you, B212bb. I am getting busy with school as I am sure you are. This is going to be my last post in 2011. I wish you and everyone else the best of luck in school or at work, especially bigs5068. See you in 2012 assuming the world does not end!

Happy Holidays.

Sincerely,

If It Pleases The Court

Droidiac

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 12:32:12 PM »
You would have to be insane to literally borrow money to pay one of these institutions to ruin your life. You don't seem to understand that you will be paying this money back for most of the rest of your life. Also, you will be unable to be competitive for any job outside of the legal field.

Pace$etter

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 12:41:20 PM »
For those interested in attending schools like Pace, please don't listen to posters like Drodiac. I am a recent graduate of Pace University and landed an associateship at a top firm in Manhattan. I can honestly say that the 180k I took out in loans to go to Pace was well worth it. I'm making over 160K (with bonus) and will be able to pay off my loans in a manageable  fifteen years. The best part of it all is not even the money. It's the prestige. People automatically respect me when I tell them what firm I work for and that is so unbelievably gratifying. I also live in the East Village without a roommate. Not many people can say that. At the end of the day, haters are going to hate, and you just have to do what you know is best for you.

fortook

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 04:34:23 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks these posts are to long winded for stating an opinion about an elusive, individual, case by case situation?  Granted: I didn't bother reading through the ones that went on for more than a page- shame on me, I guess. 
"Thank you for inviting me, Mrs. Palin." "Thank you for cutting your mullet, Levi."

blue54

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 12:49:58 AM »
Before I went to law school, I was making 45K per year with benefits.  Now that I am licensed to practice law, I am fighting to find a job that pays 40K per year. Who really gives a sh** if the school is ranked or not. The jobs aren't out there. Don't believe the department of labor, and for God's sake don't believe the law schools.  Google it, see for yourself.  There are way to many lawyers out there.  Do your own due diligence. It isn't about rights, or doing what you are passionate about. That's how you feel as a 0L, or a 1L.  Call me jaded, call me greedy, but I want a job. That is why we all go to school, right?  To get a job as a lawyer.  Right now, this is impossible.  The jobs simply don't exist. New York currently has an oversupply of 7,000 lawyers.  California has an oversupply of 3,000 lawyers.  The jobs don't exist, and even if you have the skills to hang a shingle when you get out (which you won't, because law school is about theory, and is not practical), you are fighting to get clients who can go to the larger firms and pay less, just like Wal-Mart can sell goods at a lower cost than a mom and pop grocery store.  Law schools are getting a ton of scrutiny from the press, and the ABA is under fire from members of Congress.  Don't be stupid.  Of course, this is a forum filled with idiots giving other idiots advice on which law school to go to in the worst legal environment in decades, so what I am saying will most likely fall on deaf ears. 

Am I negative?  H**l yes.  I wish someone could have given me this advice 3 years ago.  My degree sure looks all fancy sitting in my closet as I send out 10 resumes a day, only to hear nothing back from anyone.  Am I smart?  I graduated a T2 LS with latin honors, but this means nothing when the guy in front of me has 5 years of litigation experience.  You want advice on whether or not law school is worth it? Get off your pedestal and admit it isn't.  10 years ago it was.  Now it is doc review hell (if you are lucky even to get that).  In one interview I recently had, the interviewer told me they had over 100 resumes sent in, for 1 position.  I was lucky enough to be one of the 10 chosen for an interview.  Apparently, I was not lucky enough to get the position, which started at $55,000 per year and required 1900 billable hours (if you don't know the billable hours system, think 60 hours per week.  You can bill maybe 6-7 hours per day.  It's not the number of hours you actually were at work).

My shingle is out, but since law school was so awesome, I know defeasible estates, but can't for the life of me figure out how to prepare and file for a preliminary hearing for a basic DUI, and I am constantly opening myself up to liability as a result. Thanks, law school.  Most people are going to advise you to follow your dreams, to do what feels right.  You are an adult now, and not 5 years old.  You are not going to be an astronaut, and you are probably not going to be the next president.  Approach this rationally. Do your research, see what fields are hiring, and get a degree/certification in that.  Otherwise, your degree is a $100,000 paperweight collecting dust in your closet.






aha949

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Re: Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2011, 09:53:20 PM »
Pace.