Charlotte School of Law v. Pace Law School

[jiwu]

Anyone have any suggestion in which school? I was offered pretty much a half off scholarship discount at Charlotte law which is a pretty new law school located in Charlotte NC and just got its full accreditation in the min time. Also go accepted to Pace Law School in White Plains NY but was only given $4grand. So if I choose Charlotte I'll probably end up with a 80K debt rather than a 140K debt if I attend Pace Law. I understand Pace Law is a better school but which the job outlook, would it be better to attend Charlotte law instead? The scholarship charlotte is giving out is base on performance, so as long as I can maintain a 3.0GPA i will receive that money yearly. Also they offer academic scholarship as well after the first year which is offer to top 15%, top 10% and top 5%. The 5% of course getting the most money. I grew up in NY and would love to stay in NY, but being realistic here and seeing how the economy is, is charlotte law a better option? Beside I am thinking there are way too many law school in NY for one to really compete with. I know there are a total of 7 law school in NC, so which would you guys choose? I am not looking to go into biglaw firm or anything. I am interested in practicing criminal law and doing public interest work. Especially helping those that can't afford to do so and to help people are pretty much don't understand our system of law. Anyway any suggestion or opinion is appreciated. Thanks.   

[bigs5068]

With regards to scholarships you need to be careful the 3.0 requirement is somewhat of a trick many law schools use. I got a scholarship to my school when entering and I needed to keep a 3.0 to maintain the scholarship, but only %35 of the first year students could have a 3.0 so there was a 65% chance I would lose it. I kept mine, but many people lost their's and in regards to the 15%, 10%, 5% it is nothing against you personally, but there is an 85% chance you won't be in the top 15%, 90% chance you won't be in the top 10, and 95% chance you won't be in the top 5%. Every student at every ABA school on the first day of school thinks they will be in the top 10%, but 90% of them are wrong. Remember at any ABA law school the majority of students are smart hard working people who want to be in the 10%. I don't think 0L's with scholarships are aware of this, because if you are offered a scholarship to an ABA school odds are you got a 3.0 in undergrad without breaking a sweat, but that is not how it works in law school. There are only so man A's and B's per class nobody no matter how well you know the material so be cautious of the conditions on scholarships.

With all that being said if you want to stay in NY then go to school in NY. Pace won't open doors outside of NY and Charlotte won't open doors outside of NC they are regional schools and if you attend Charlotte all the connections you make will be in NC and the practical reality is during the school year you will not be able to interview with anyone in NY or intern with anyone in NY if you are in Charlotte and vice versa if you are in NY. It is just simple geography I am sure if you attend Pace you could get an unpaid internship for the local D.A's office and same with Charlotte, but with the Charlotte D.A. It is just simple geography and nobody from NY is going to be coming to Charlotte law school to look for Grads. It is the only law school in Charlotte I believe so I am sure you could find something to do in Charlotte, but not NY.

Bottom line is if you want to be in NY go to law school in NY. There is a strong chance you will lose your scholarship at Charlotte or Pace and it is nothing against you personal just the reality of it so I would stay in NY if I was you. Well good luck to you and congrats on getting into law school and getting scholarship offers.

[fortook]

Will you get offended if I make a blanket observation?  I hope not, because I'm going to do it.  Broadly speaking, there are quite a few law schools in NY.  Even so, your chances are much better coming out of Pace.  What kind of regional draw does Charlotte have?  Your looking at it macro, not micro.  Charlotte has fewer resources like OCI, alum base and regional recognition than Pace, yes NY has more schools overall, but there is more to it than broad demographics to consider. Plus, isn't Charlotte a for profit school?  As the above poster said, your chances of keeping you scholarship aren't good.  I hope you didn't make a mistake and have a hard time finding a job when you get out of Charlotte.  I don't know the stats for either school, but I would guess Pace has much better employment stats vs Charlotte. Good luck.

[B212bb]

May I make a suggestion? Don't go at all, and if you already there, cut your losses and quit. Any debt from either school is a bad idea. Jobs are hard to come by and it is not just because of the economy. There is simply a glut of law school graduates. The Dept of Labor estimates that the country will create about 100,000 legal jobs in the next decade, but remember over 40,000 people graudate law school per year. So you do the math (OK, if law students could do math they would be going into finance and not law).

[bigs5068]

True, but do you think other professions are much better? At least in law there are only 40,000 graduates per year and there is a standardized test the bar that about 20-25% of people can't pass. So that reduces it to 30,000 per year. It will be competitive, but try being one of the numerous people with a bachelor's degree, a master's, MBA, etc. That is even more difficult. Bottom line is the world is hard and there are more people than ever so everything is competitive. If you want to be a lawyer go to law school and see what happens. It will not be easy, but neither is anything else so you might as well choose something you would enjoy doing.

[Hamilton]

Good advice - do not go to law school unless you truly dream of being a lawyer and know that is what you want to do.  If the law is not your dream, find another graduate degree that will benefit you.

Yes, hard to find work in other professions, but what is worse, Scenario 1 or Scenario 2?
Scenario 1: Graduate college with moderate debt and have a hard time finding work.
Scenario 2: Graduate college with moderate debt, go to law school and take on anoth $100K of non-dischargable debt, burn 3 years of your life, have an equally hard time (if not harder) finding a job in a much narrower field.

May I make a suggestion? Don't go at all, and if you already there, cut your losses and quit. Any debt from either school is a bad idea. Jobs are hard to come by and it is not just because of the economy. There is simply a glut of law school graduates. The Dept of Labor estimates that the country will create about 100,000 legal jobs in the next decade, but remember over 40,000 people graudate law school per year. So you do the math (OK, if law students could do math they would be going into finance and not law).

[bigs5068]

The sad thing is college is not cheap anymore. Many undergrads charge the same as law schools and if you think the competition for entry level J.D. jobs sucks. Try going in with a B.A. in History. You might be slightly more in debt for the J.D., but at least there is a chance of doing something and you could even go into business for yourself. Not many postings for historians on craigslist.

My main point is everybody claims the J.D. market is so bad, but there is the GLOBAL RECESSION and there are a lot fewer people that can get in and get through law school than can get into and through college. So you are competing with less people. It is still hard in fact very hard, but you are a lot better of than most people. What happens to a lot of people though is they think law school is the safe easy route that will give me a sweet job and I will settle for it. That is no good. The law is difficult and a lot of work especially when your getting started and if you did it thinking things were going to come easy you will be disappointed and then spend your time making a website like JDunderground instead of taking accountablity for your decision. Anyways, no matter what you want do choose something your interested in and enjoy, because there is no easy guaranteed way to get a sweet high paying job in this world. If there is please let me know.

[fortook]

How do people get through college and end up with such a tit for tat, two dimensional, vocational view of undergrad? History is an academic major just like English or Math or any other academic major (as opposed to tech or vocational).  Do you think people in those majors look on craigslist for jobs as an English expert or a mathematician? Only a handful of majors work so literally and laterally and the problem with many of those is you can't advance until you go to grad school. 

What can someone with a history degree do?  Well simply put, anything anyone with any other degree can do: sales, editing, publishing, writing, teaching, admin, human services, business, law support, financial support, etc. Half of what you study is required for everyone anyway.  The major itself is relatively insignificant for the vast majority of entry level jobs out there.  The most hopeful in my class did a double major in math and history as prep for law school.  I'd bet money he got into a top 14 school.

[bigs5068]

I have nothing against Undergrad my point is that there are a lot more people with bachelor's than J.D.'s and even fewer J.D's that have passed the bar. Even fewer that have passed in a particular state so you are competing  with fewer people when searching for a job after passing the bar, but there is still a lot of competition.

The poster B212B cites the department of labor stats for lawyers. They are not great, but is it any better for any other profession. No it is not at the moment I suppose computer programing engineering is doing well. However, there was the dot.com bust only 10 years ago and that industry was doing terribly. After the cold war missile manufacturers went down after 9/11 those went back up. I could go on and on with examples, but what nobody who gives the conclusory statement of "the economy sucks" you shouldn't do x seems to do is not look outside their bubble. The legal economy is not great right now and there have been other times it has not been great. There have also been good times and there will be good times in the future. If you get a law degree you can be a lawyer for the rest of your life through the good times and the bad and there will be good times and there will be bad simple as that. You hear med students complaining about Obamacare and how it will destroy everything maybe it will maybe it won't it is a change and that whole profession might be hurt but it will adjust and it maybe it will go away or it won't be so bad who knows.

The point is if you want to be a lawyer go to law school it is a big sacrifice of time and money so be sure it is something you want. If you want to be a cop go to the police academy, a teacher get a teaching credential, so on and so forth. Those things will last a lifetime period.

[blue54]

Take it from someone who graduated law school from a T2 in May and who passed the bar exam.  I have had 4 interviews so far, 3 of which were cattle calls, the last one hasn't gotten back to me since I let them know of my passing score.  I apply to 5 jobs a day, every day, and have been doing so since I passed the bar (except when I have absolutely run out of all resources, in which case I have to wait a few days for new jobs to be posted).  I check my school's career center site, a legal career site, lawcrossing, Monster, Career Builder, craigslist, and I even send out my resume to attorneys I find on Martindale.  The market is HORRIBLE out there.  The only reason I have had interviews is because I clerked at a law firm for 3 years while in law school (but was no offered because of the market ) and thus I have experience drafting motions and briefs.  But I warn you, do not go to law school if you will come out with debt.  It is the worst decision of your life.  The bar exam alone costs at least $4,000 with the bar review course, character & fitness, and bar fees (that is for a cheap state, some states such charge as much as $1,000 just to sit for the exam, not including the review course and the character & fitness fees). 

Those schools you listed are not good. Let's face it.  If you want to be an attorney, sure, go to those schools, but you will be saddled with non-dischargeable debt.  I am looking at making $50,000/year, if I am lucky, and I graduated in the top 25% of my class.  Luckily, my debt is not that high, but it still exists, and will take some time to pay off.  If you come out of one of those schools, you will be lucky to make $40,000/year to begin with.  You may as well be a manager at Target, as they start you out at more than that.

Some people on this board will tell you to do it and expect a hard road.  I am telling you, FROM EXPERIENCE, that it is not worth it.  A majority of my law school peers have no jobs lined up and are saddled with massive debt from undergrad and law.  Think of the money you can make in the three years you would be spending it in law school.  That alone should be enough to deter you from this dwindling profession.  Unless you can get a FULL RIDE guaranteed from a well respected law school (i.e. T2 regional or T14 national), do not go to law school.

I realize this will probably fall on deaf ears, and you can't argue with the ignorant.  But I cannot stress to you enough how bad it is out there, and that law is not a profession to go into unless you are smart enough to get into a good school and come out with little to no debt.  The lower tier schools have too many stipulations on their scholarships that make it very difficult to keep them.  Avoid them! 

Lastly, do not think you can graduate from law school, pass the bar, and suddenly be a practicing attorney.  Law school does a terrible job of preparing you for the practice of law.  Sure, I can tell you about the rule against perpetuities, or about your 1st Amendment rights with respect to burning the American flag, but law school never taught me how to submit documents to court, how to argue a motion in front of a judge, or how to handle an active book of cases.  If you try and do this straight out of law school, you will be a magnet for a malpractice lawsuit.  You need to get experience at a firm, a court, or a governmental entity before you can truly practice law on your own.  Going solo is a dangerous, expensive route and is not feasible, so do not think you can come out and start billing at $250/hr and make it big.  Law school is not like medical school: there is no practical component.  It's 90% theory, and that works to your detriment in the real world.

Good luck with your future, and please take my words of caution.  I am in the trenches, fighting for a position among countless other attorneys who have lost their jobs and have much more experience I do.  I have friends that are taking jobs as waitresses, bartenders, and grocery baggers just to make ends meet.  It's not worth the time and the debt.  Find yourself a job that starts you out at $30,000/year with the degree you have, you won't have the lost opportunity costs associated with law school.  You will be making almost as much as you would as a lawyer, but without the debt and the stress.