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Author Topic: CUNY vs. GGU  (Read 3051 times)

like_lasagna

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2011, 01:44:32 AM »
It is very unlikely you will get a job a BIG LAW job from GGU and I could not agree more about Big Law job prospects. However, you can get a job as an attorney from GGU and many graduates start out making between 50-80k and it will take time to pay off the debt, but if you want to be a lawyer GGU works fine.

Doubtful, really. Bar passage rate is <70% and they don't even bother reporting employment stats at graduation. Horrible percentile for reported salaries. There are far too many unemployed T14 grads who would love to work in San Francisco. The jobs just aren't there.

New LST data, btw: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2011/04/class-of-2009-u-s-news-data/

bigs5068

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2011, 03:43:50 PM »
Almost every school except for T14 reports salaries like that on lawschooltransparency. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=sanfranciso&show=flow. 20% University of San Francisco, 20% Santa Clara University http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=santaclara&show=flow. Arizona State 20% http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=asu&show=flow. Those are few tier 2 schools reporting 20% and almost no school outside of the t14 reports more than 50% salaries. BYU 44% http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=byu&show=flow. The list goes on and on bottom line is their is no guarantee at any school. U.S. News and the ABA have such horrible data that nobody really knows the salaries. The unreported people at these schools may be making millions or flipping burgers nobody knows. Again the school you attend outside of a TOP school is pretty irrelevant it will be up to YOU

I do personally know people that graduated from GGU and make between 50-80k. They have student loans to pay off, but they are fine. Most enjoy their jobs, but their are some that do not. I know people from Hastings that have failed the bar 3 times now and are not doing well. I also know people from Hastings doing well. Same goes for Santa Clara & USF students. It all comes down to YOU not your school unless you are going to Stanford etc. At least that is what I believe in my limited law student opinion and from what I have seen.

like_lasagna

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2011, 06:32:48 PM »
Why are you using old data? I gave you the link. They have class of 2009 data. And while reporting isn't great, I'm looking at percentiles (since that tells you how well they report salaries relative to other schools). ASU is 31st percentile for salary reporting. BYU is 60th. Santa Clara is ~20th, and USF is 25th. Golden Gate is 18th (and gets worse if you count clerkships, obviously). CUNY is marginally better, but still not very good.

Also probably shouldn't talk about the bar, given the <70% pass rate from GGU.

bigs5068

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2011, 07:36:52 PM »
I thought I used the updated version who knows or cares whether it was last year or the year before at every school salary numbers go widely unreported. 68% of people from GGU passed and that means well over half the people at the school passed the test on the first time. Remember no school guarantees you will pass the bar and whether or not you pass the bar depends on YOU.. Not to mention California is one of the most difficult states to pass the bar and Hastings Tier 1 only has 12% more pass with an 80% passage rate. Whether you go to GGU, Harvard, Stanford, Hastings whatever it may be the bar is a standardized test that YOU are responsible for passing. No law school anywhere guarantees you will pass the bar if you go to their school.

Same statement I have made time and time again whether or not you pass the bar, get a job, succeed, is your own burden. The name of your school might put you a few steps back or ahead, but the responsibility to succeed is ultimately your own and you can thrive or fail from any ABA school. Again it is up to YOU.

FalconJimmy

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2011, 08:18:20 PM »
<<Remember no school guarantees you will pass the bar>>

I think there are multiple examples of fiesty, up and comer schools that have better bar passage rates than more highly regarded schools.  Personally, I think it's because some schools concentrate on more practical aspects of the law, whereas others focus more on theoretical aspects. 

<<Not to mention California is one of the most difficult states to pass the bar >>

Do you think so?  I mean, I know California's bar passage rate is abysmal, but no other state is letting thousands of people who never set foot in an ABA accredited law school take the test, either.


<<Same statement I have made time and time again whether or not you pass the bar, get a job, succeed, is your own burden. The name of your school might put you a few steps back or ahead, but the responsibility to succeed is ultimately your own and you can thrive or fail from any ABA school. Again it is up to YOU. >>

Although that's largely true, I don't think it's completely true.  Check out Monster.com.  How many ads are on there for new-hire attorneys? 

The reality is that most of the best jobs are found through OCI.  Worse schools?  Fewer firms doing OCI. 

Personally, I think everybody agrees that the #1 guy in the class would have done exceptionally well at any school.  I once heard a quote that is attributed to a professor who had guest-taught at various schools.  He said that the very best students at even the lesser-regarded schools would have been the best students at Harvard, too.  However, the very worst students at the lesser-regarded schools are nohwere near the caliber as the bottom of the class at Harvard.

If you go to a lesser school, you will need to have a better class rank to get the same job that a lesser class rank at a greater school would get you.

For instance, maybe you're in the 80th %ile at a T4 school, and you can get the same kind of jobs that somebody who is 70th %ile at a T2 school would get.

I think most people would agree that to some degree or another, a high ranking student from a lower school is every bit as good as a lower ranking student from a higher school.

Trouble is, when firms interview, they're far more likely to interview at a higher regarded school.

It only stands to reason.  Why go to a T4 school when they would only consider extending a job offer to 3 or 4 people in the class?  Those people will have other job offers.  That's a lot of effort to try and get one of very few students.

Whereas, if they go to a T2 school, maybe they can count on a pool of 30 or so students who would fit the bill.

I agree that largely, your school isn't your fate if you go into practice for yourself.  I also agree that you can do things to help your cause if you're at a lesser regarded school. 

However, the folks at the higher regarded school have an advantage.  The only debate would be how big that advantage is.  Employers are going to completely avoid some schools.  The better the employer, the more likely that they're just not going to bother visiting the worst schools in a given market.

bigs5068

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Re: CUNY vs. GGU
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2011, 09:17:13 PM »
Yep that is all true, but I still think California bar is one of the hardest to pass although here you don't even have to go law school to take the bar, but the CBA & that office study program have abysmal bar passage rates. If you attend a CBA school you have to pass the baby bar after the first year also and as a result the attrition rates there are extremely high. Bottom line is California has a hard bar and the reason for the CBA schools is that there are so many fairly large towns where no ABA law schools exist. Fresno, Chico, Bakersfield, etc those cities and their surrounding areas have 500,000+ people, but they are small towns by California standards. If you pass the California bar you are licensed to practice in San Diego, L.A., San Jose (10th Largest city in America random I know, San Francisco, Sacramento. I don't think any other state has so many large markets. All 5 of those towns are so large they have professional sports teams so if you pass the California Bar you can go places. I think it is very different state than almost every other jurisdiction.

You are right that top firms will not come to tier 4 schools why would they? If you want a top law job don't go to a tier 4 school. It could happen, but you basically need to be in the top 5-10% of the class to even have a shot at a big law job from a tier 4. There is a 90-95% chance that won't happen. However, if you attend a tier 4 or even a CBA school in California you can get a job with the Court every county in California is required to provide free legal services for civil, family law, etc. These are guaranteed attorney jobs, but you won't find Harvard Grads in them, but they are decent paying attorney jobs. Just one of the many things you could do without going to a Big Mega Law Firm.

You can also get a job in a D.A., P.D. office. City Attorney or one of the thousands of small to mid-size law firms in California.  California is a very unique jurisdiction is the point of my post, but I 100% agree with everything you said. For anyone reading this and considering law school just remember law school for the most part is what YOU make of it. This also applies to any educational pursuit. However, if you want to be on the Supreme Court or make 200K+ at graduation then don't go to a tier 4 school. If you can be happy having a job as an attorney doing legal work then go to law school. Nothing is guaranteed though. The end of my rant.