University of Denver v. University of Oregon

[cjweber]

Come to U of O, i think thats where i'll end up next year!

I feel like Boulder would be a huge powerhouse in CO.  The rank difference between Boulder and Denver is large enough that the two schools aren't really in the same league.  The difference between U of O and L&C or even U of Washington is much more manageable....  Well at least the difference between Oregon and L&C isnt that big haha

I just keep hearing "pick where you want to end up" so also keep that in mind!!

If anyone else knows there going to Oregon feel free to PM me!

[bigs5068]

I go to the top school in my market and only half of last years class had a job at graduation.

I also think there's 4T and there's 4T.  Looking at Ohio schools, honestly, I mean no disrespect to anybody, but I don't think anybody thinks there's a whit of difference between CSU, U of Toledo and U of Akron Law.  I think they're all regarded as competent, not particularly remarkable, and just solid, state-supported law schools with rather forgiving admissions policies. 

I don't think anybody thinks of them as “great”, but I don't think anybody thinks of them as “bad” either.  They're “good”, solid, they teach you the law and get you ready to practice if you're willing to put in the work and you have some potential.  The top of the classes probably do very well.  The bottom of the classes probably not so much.

They all move around a lot between 3T and 4T.  Once in a while, one of them will crack the lower part of 2T.  (Toledo has been there a couple of times this century).  There seems to be a lot of movement and jockeying in the 3 and 4T. 

That tells me the rankings are highly imprecise when drawing distinctions between these schools.  You just can't take them too seriously if it's possible to be #98 one year, and in the hoard below #143 three years later.  Contrast to the T14, where the schools are the same every year. 

That is exactly my point regarding the rankings. As you said none of those Ohio schools turns heads, but I have known one Toledo grad that was quite comptenent and had a good job. I wasn't blown away that she went to Toledo Law School, but I didn't think wow what an idiot either. It came down to her ability to do her job, which she did quite comptenently. Even in Oregon I honestly know there is Williamette, Oregon, Lewis & Clark, and maybe another school. If you asked me which school is better I would have literally no idea. None of them are impressive, Oregon is famous for it's sports program. However, that would not make me think outstanding lawyers are being produced. Again, if I was rating lawyers I would look at that track record etc.

The T14 schools are the T14 schools. The type of school where someone says it and it gives them almost instant credibility, whether it is deserved or not. I compare to these schools like being a 7 footer in basketball. Even if your not good people will give you a chance, because a 7 foot human being is just rare and has a lot of potential. Harvard Grads are rare as well and if you could get a 175 on your LSAT you are pretty intelligent, although scoring well on a MC choice does not necessarily indicate much of an aptitude for the law it is impressive to score that high.

You can consider the rankings, but at the end of the day not many employer are going to go to great lengths to determine if Southwestern is better than Santa Clara or Maine is better than Gonzaga. Any ABA school teaches you the law and unless you are at an ELITE school, the 98th or 114th best school is not going to be much of a divider to anyone. More than likely someone hiring you won't even care to know the difference between a tier 3,4 school.

[jack24]

Do you think this has something to do with the economy, though?  I mean, new grads of all stripes (both law and non-law) are having trouble finding jobs.  I wonder if perhaps the situation you describe has more to do with the economy than your school.
 

It's absolutely because of the economy.  I'm just trying to get the point across that it is bad at the top school in my market and it is much much worse at the lower ranked schools in the area. 
I'm still glad I went to law school because I feel like it has sharpened my mind and I am much more capable now.  I feel like I will personally be better at any job I do in the future.  However, a law school diploma doesn't really open that many doors right now.  It opens the door into an incredibly saturated market with millions of lawyers who have basically the same degree.
I network and search job boards all the time, and I find far more jobs in banking (my previous career) than I do in the legal field. On top of that, the bankers don't really see my law degree as an advantage.  They are far more interested in my previous experience.
So yes, the economy is tough and grads of all types are struggling, but a law degree does not give you a much higher percentage chance of getting a job than a bachelors degree does right now.    So if you truly do want to be a lawyer, a law degree is a great investment, but if you just want to be in a decent professional career, a law degree doesn't really pay off like it used to. (Unless you are one of the top graduates)
 

[bigs5068]

Only thing is I don't know what degree is not saturated with people. You are absolutely right that there are lot of lawyers out there and it is competitive. However, I am not sure there is a huge demand for M.B.A's, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Cops, I honestly am not aware of any position that people are like man there are just not enough of these around. Or jobs are being handed out jobs always have been and always will be competitive. Some times are slightly easier than others, but unless you are at one of the TOP SCHOOLS or one of the TOP STUDENTS at a mid level school nothing will come easy in anything. At least not that I am aware of. I have quite a few friend from high school and undergrad that did not go to law school many became computer engineers, teachers, cops, nurses, b-ball coaches etc. Some went to great undergrads and some attended no name schools. I do not know anyone that had a job handed to them, even my friends that attended Stanford, Berkeley,UCLA, and USC. All my friends even the ones from those great school have had varying levels of success and I truly don't think any industry anywhere is excited to hire an inexperienced College Grad that has no substantial experience other than an internship here or there.

In all professions everywhere it is the ultimate catch 22 you have to go to school pretty much nower days. However, nobody will hire you without experience, but you can't get experience if nobody will hire you. So it sucks and this does not change drastically in any profession I am aware of and I am pretty sure this is the way it has always been. People just have the internet now and complain more frequently than they did before, but this is not the first recession America has ever faced. Read any book about any profession from any recent time period and it will say how bad the job market is etc. It's life and teh bottom line is if you want to be a lawyer go to law school it will be an obstacle, if you want to be a basketball coach get a graduate assistant position at a college, if you want to be a cop go to a police academy, if you want to be a businessman get an M.B.A., none of them are guaranteed paths. If there is a guaranteed path that I am not aware of I beg of anyone out there to tell me about it, because me and everyone else I know is  unaware of it.

[sunshine09]

Thanks for the input,  I have decided on Denver...

[FalconJimmy]

However, I am not sure there is a huge demand for M.B.A's, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Cops, I honestly am not aware of any position that people are like man there are just not enough of these around.

This is off-topic, but I'm not sure what you're saying is true.  Nurses?  Doctors?  They go to an academically rigorous course of study and there IS demand for them because the degrees aren't that easy to get, and the number of schools that can confer the degree is limited.  Some nursing schools are difficult to gain admission to, and all MD and DO programs are difficult to gain entry to.

Teachers?  Other than in inner cities, teaching jobs have been hard to get for the last 4 decades.  The degrees are not hard to get, and the jobs are relatively attractive (to the right kind of people.)  Lots of grads relative to the opportunities = hard time finding a job.

MBAs?  I think there's a cautionary tale in there for JDs.  Granted, JDs have two things that MBAs don't:  the bar exam and ABA accreditation.  MBAs have an equivalent accreditation:  AACSB, but you can open up an MBA program without being AACSB accredited.  I'd say about 1/4 to 1/3 of MBAs aren't.  Ultimately, there are a few elite MBAs that will open doors.  Unfortunately, the remainder are unremarkable and undistinguishable.  Your AACSB accredited MBA from University of Texas at Arlington is not really that different than the non-aacsb program at University of Dallas in the minds of most people.

Plus, business is very different than law.  Business has always been an area where A students work under C students because business success depends a lot more on intangible and interpersonal factors.  For the most part, an MBA is more of a check-off degree.  It doesn't do much for your career, other than lets you continue on the trajectory you're already on.  A few business employers want to know your gpa.  The vast, vast majority will never ask.  Class rank is essentially a non-factor.  5 years into your career, nobody will ever care where your degrees came from.  (Contrast to law where you carry your law school's name and class rank with you essentially throughout your entire career.)

Basically, when a degree becomes ubiquitous to the point that pretty much anybody who feels like getting one can get one (which is basically where the MBA is, now), it loses pretty much all its value.

Again, Law isn't EXACTLY like that, because of ABA and bar exams.  However, it's a lot closer to being an MBA than being an MD.

I sincerely doubt that any med school grads are wondering if they'll be able to get jobs.  Even nurses may not be able to get the exact jobs they want, but they can find jobs right now.  In fact, they're finding jobs that pay as much as a lot of law jobs, and you can be an RN with an associate's degree.

With Law, my impression (non-expert, obviously) is that most reasonably bright people who want to go to law school can go.  However, only SOME will be employed as attorneys, later.  The weed-out process happens after graduation, not before.  Contrast to med school where the weeding out happens pretty much before your first day of med school classes.  If you get in, chances are you'll finish.  If you finish, you'll get a job in the field. 

With Law, if you get in, chances are you'll finish IF YOU WANT TO, but when you finish, if all you did was get the degree, without excelling in some way (by either going to a very distinguished school, or placing high in your less distinguished school), that's just not a guarantee of employment.  In that way, the law degree is a heck of a lot like an MBA or teaching degree.

[bigs5068]

I have friends in nursing school and I have only talked to a few med students don't personally know anyone. I know the nursing students are worried about finding jobs and my one friend is in a program where they have failed out 80% of the students that started, the remaining 20% are still worried about finding jobs at graduation.

For med students as I understand it from a few brief conversations is you go to med school then you do your residency, which locks you in for 4-5 years at 50,000 a year after having paid 100K+ for med school. All the med students I talked to were saying how much easier it would be to be a lawyer and I thought the exact opposite, but it turns out neither one is all that great. You can succeed in either one, but it is not a guarantee. I also think when your residency ends you are not guaranteed a job it is a competitive profession just like everything else. Again, this is based on two very brief conversations regarding M.D.'s.

I do know nursing students are not guaranteed anything and it is extremely difficult to even get accepted into any nursing program.

If I am correct about the M.D. process, then I think my point still stands there is no guaranteed way to financial success. If there was most people would probably be doing it. Education is a risk and when you graduate the annoying process of job hunting begins no matter what you are doing.

[FalconJimmy]

I have friends in nursing school and I have only talked to a few med students don't personally know anyone. I know the nursing students are worried about finding jobs and my one friend is in a program where they have failed out 80% of the students that started, the remaining 20% are still worried about finding jobs at graduation.

The market for nurses is softer than in previous years, meaning that instead of 100% of nursing students having a job before graduation, maybe it's 50%.  The remainder have to look for a few months.  In some parts of the country, there are no nursing jobs, but overall, there's still a severe shortage.  So, yeah, they may have to relocate to get a job.

However, when was the last time you saw a news article like this about attorneys?

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/blog/breaking_ground/2011/03/registered-nurses-most-sought-workers.html

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_17705986

Yeah, those are in California, but keep in mind, the unemployment rate in California is about 10%.

Registered Nurses are still getting jobs.  Anybody saying otherwise is flat-out lying or just plain stupid.  Don't confuse RNs with LPNs or NAs.  They're not even remotely the same thing.

For med students as I understand it from a few brief conversations is you go to med school then you do your residency, which locks you in for 4-5 years at 50,000 a year after having paid 100K+ for med school. All the med students I talked to were saying how much easier it would be to be a lawyer and I thought the exact opposite, but it turns out neither one is all that great. You can succeed in either one, but it is not a guarantee. I also think when your residency ends you are not guaranteed a job it is a competitive profession just like everything else. Again, this is based on two very brief conversations regarding M.D.'s.

Those med students are whiney and delusional.  What you describe is common to hear them say but absolutely none of it is borne out in the numbers.  Even after residency, primary, family and pediatric physicians earn an average of 180K per year.  Those are the lowest paid category of doctors in the country.  Yes, their earnings are delayed, but you can become an MD with 4 years of grad school and I believe the residency unless you specialize is only 1 year.  So, you can have a career that spans 4 decades.  Not hard to pay back student loans when you make $180K a year. 

If you specialize, the pay goes up, though the residency requirement does, too.

I do know nursing students are not guaranteed anything and it is extremely difficult to even get accepted into any nursing program.

fair enough.  However, that's my point:  their job security is secure in part because they're not getting a degree that just anybody can get.

If I am correct about the M.D. process, then I think my point still stands there is no guaranteed way to financial success.

So long as you define financial success as being something more than $180,000 for your career, then yes, you're right.  Getting an MD is no guarantee of financial success.

If there was most people would probably be doing it.

We must be talking about different things, here.  One of the reasons most people can't do it is that they can't qualify for medical school.  Right now, the average GPA for ANY medical school is about 3.7.  The only difference is the HBCUs, but frankly, that only applies to a certain segment of the population.

So, yeah, getting into medical school is not guaranteed.  Not everybody can take the pre-med core classes and still leave school with a 3.7.

Your success after getting your MD or DO is pretty much assured, though.

Likewise, being a major league ballplayer for a decade is a guaranteed path to financial success.  Even so, most people are not doing it.  It requires ability that most people do not have.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

"In 2008, physicians practicing primary care had total median annual compensation of $186,044, and physicians practicing in medical specialties earned total median annual compensation of $339,738."

"Job prospects. Opportunities for individuals interested in becoming physicians and surgeons are expected to be very good. In addition to job openings from employment growth, openings will result from the need to replace the relatively high number of physicians and surgeons expected to retire over the 2008-18 decade."

Contrast to attorneys:

"Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year. Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal training is an asset, but not normally a requirement—for example, administrative, managerial, and business positions in banks, insurance firms, real estate companies, government agencies, and other organizations. Employment opportunities are expected to continue to arise in these organizations at a growing rate."

"As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs. This service allows companies to hire lawyers on an “as-needed” basis and permits beginning lawyers to develop practical skills."

"In May 2008, the median annual wages of all wage-and-salaried lawyers were $110,590. The middle half of the occupation earned between $74,980 and $163,320."

 Education is a risk and when you graduate the annoying process of job hunting begins no matter what you are doing.

Ummm... yeah, we live in different realities.  I would say that graduating with an MD, where 100% of the members of your class who want jobs will have jobs, and graduating with a JD from a 4T where maybe half of your class who want jobs may not be able to find one is a completely different thing.

If you think they're analogous, then more power to you.

[bigs5068]

I don't know if 100% of med students wind up with jobs, or at least jobs they want. I think anyone can end up with a JOB period. I think anyone lawyer, doctor, any professional could find employment in the sticks. There simply are not simply enough there. A tier 4 grad could probably get clients in Weed, California because there are no lawyers there. To get a job in San Francisco, New York or something where a million people are fighting for jobs it is much more difficult. Same logic applies for doctors I am assuming hospitals in San Francisco, New York, Chicago, L.A. are inundated with med school applicants. Laramie, Wyoming hospital probably receives fewer applications and would be easier to get a job. This is specifically in the article you posted. # Job opportunities should be very good, particularly in rural and low-income areas. This is exactly what one of my friends who is an RN told me he said in Tahoe you can make a lot of money as a nurse or doctor, but he doesn't want to live there. I think a lot of the same logic applies for law students if you lived in the sticks you would be the only attorney around and people would come to you. Most law students and med students don't want to live in the sticks.

The article also applies to practicing physicians I think many employed lawyers are making decent salaries. The article does not discuss how many med students have not found jobs it simply is using numbers from practicing physicians. They have to go through residency where they are locked in to a certain salary roughly 40k for 3-5 years while the interest on their loans balloons up. Even if they make a good salary they have to pay back a lot of money.

Based on both your and my points it does sound like either of us really know anything about the medical profession and you saying the med students were whiny are exactly what they think about law students who say they can't find jobs. I think law students have some idea that doctors have some easy path and many doctors think the same thing about lawyers. The grass is always greener on the other side.

I am almost positive you are locked into a residency for between 3-8 years where your income is set at something very low considering you have paid at least 100K in educational expenses. I think it is generally 40,000 for 5 years on average where you are locked in there is no graduating med school and getting a 200k a year job, which can happen with law school if you land a Big Law Job. Neither of us really seem to know to much about this and neither of us are med students or nursing students. In my opinion I don't think M.D.'s have it any easier than the rest of people. To get an IDEAL job is very hard. Anyone from any law school can get a job doing document review somewhere. That sucks though and nobody wants to do it. I am sure there are things for doctors that are less than desirable as well as locations and being locked into a certain salary while your interest rates on your loans are growing exponentially sucks.

It is a risk and I really don't think there is any degree that guarantees anything. If you think differently then that is the way it is, and you might be right. My friends are RN's not LVN's I know the difference and they are worried about finding jobs. I do live in California so maybe that has something to do with it and it could be better elsewhere. However, the economy can tank in any state at any time and RN jobs could be hard to come by.

[FalconJimmy]

Based on both your and my points it does sound like either of us really know anything about the medical profession and you saying the med students were whiny are exactly what they think about law students who say they can't find jobs. I think law students have some idea that doctors have some easy path and many doctors think the same thing about lawyers. The grass is always greener on the other side.

I do agree that all professions have a lot of whining, especially if they're insular.  For instance, doctors tend to hang around a lot of other doctors.  Teachers tend to hang around a lot of other teachers.  So, yeah, it makes the grass look greener.

Doctors have a lot of legitimate reasons to gripe, but compensation and job opportunities are not valid ones, IMHO.  Again, the numbers simply don't bear out any compliants along this dimension.

If you dig a little deeper, the reality is that doctors think that businesspeople and attorneys have it easy because they believe that doctors are smart and businesspeople and attorneys are stupid.  Because of this, they automatically put themselves at the very highest percentiles of earnings in the belief that their superior intellect would make them, say, the CEO of the company because they're so much smarter than everyone else.  Or, that they would make partner automatically because they're so much smarter.  In some cases, they might be right, but for the most part, they're seriously misjudging the factors of career success in business and maybe in the law, too.

Their basic premise is this:  "I'm a doctor and I'm smart.  I only make $280,000 a year.  But if I had gone into business, I'd be a CEO making $7 million a year.  At a minimum, I'd be a senior VP making a million.  And those guys didn't have to go to medical school which was not just hard, but expensive."

Not to shill my blog too much, but I did discuss this at length, here, and also cast the net to include some whiney attorneys, too:

http://lawgoround.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-go-into-law-its-such-crappy-career.html



I hope what you say is true regarding the possibility that any law school graduate can get work doing document review.  That's not my understanding, but frankly, I have to admit that I am operating solely on secondhand knowledge.

As for residency, specialties require longer residencies.  However, your garden variety doctor is just one year.  We don't have to be medical students to find this out.  Google suffices.