Wayne State: Worth it?

[Hamilton]

ALL law schools lie about these numbers.  They are pure BS and cannot be trusted.

The % w/ jobs 9 mos after graduation was very impressive in this economy--over 98%. But even more impressive was the number who are getting jobs out of state--almost half the class, over 29 states, as you can see from the link above.

[WSUAlum1]

Thanks for your helpful comment.  I'm not sure which "numbers . . . are pure BS and cannot be trusted."

The US News ranking numbers? http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/03/us-news-hacked.html
The application numbers? (citation in my 1st post above)
The number of clinical profs at Wayne State? http://law.wayne.edu/faculty/full-time.php
The bar passage numbers? See my 1st post
The number of scholarships, and the dollar amounts? See http://www.top-law-schools.com/michigan-state-college-of-law.html, under "Financial Aid"

I assume you mean the employment numbers.  Yes, they've been pretty sketchy over the years.  That's why Vanderbilt started the Law School Transparency project to improve the quality of reporting with respect to employment numbers: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/  Here's MSU (http://www.law.msu.edu/career/placement-rates.html) and Wayne's (http://www.law.wayne.edu/career-services/2010stats.php) transparency numbers.  Toledo's Career Services website is here: http://law.utoledo.edu/students/career/index.htm.

But you apparently have reason to believe that these numbers are untrustworthy.  Please let us know which numbers you don't believe, and the evidence you have for your skepticism.

[Hamilton]

employment numbers

[WSUAlum1]

OK.  Thanks.  So here are the employment #s for MSU:  http://www.law.msu.edu/career/placement-rates.html.  And here are the #s for WSU:  http://www.law.wayne.edu/career-services/2010stats.php.  They purport to list graduates employed by type of employer, size of employer, etc.

Which of these numbers are lies/pure BS/cannot be trusted?  And what information do you have to support your claim?

[WSUAlum1]

More info for the OP:

US News rankings are out, and US News is ranking the 3d tier:  http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+8

Michigan State: 95
Wayne:  121

Toledo fell into T4.  (I'll be curious about that story--big fall in 3 years)

Go to Michigan State, for all the reasons above.

[Hamilton]

I'm not going to rehash the whole subject of law school transparency and reliability of employment stats - it's been doe a thousand times; however, it is common knowledge (even with the ABA) that there are problems with employment numbers reported by law schools.  They cannot be taken at face value.

OK.  Thanks.  So here are the employment #s for MSU:  http://www.law.msu.edu/career/placement-rates.html.  And here are the #s for WSU:  http://www.law.wayne.edu/career-services/2010stats.php.  They purport to list graduates employed by type of employer, size of employer, etc.

Which of these numbers are lies/pure BS/cannot be trusted?  And what information do you have to support your claim?

[FalconJimmy]

Toledo fell into T4.  (I'll be curious about that story--big fall in 3 years)

It's a pretty straightforward story.

Toledo was gaming the system with the US News numbers.  Basically, if you had poor GPA and LSAT, they put you in the transitional program, or only admitted you to the part-time section.

Now, US News includes part-timers in their ranking data.  So, Toledo lost an advantage there.

Also, these things snowball.  To a degree, the US News rankings become a self-fullfilling prophecy.  If your school makes it to, say, #23, students who weren't interested when it was #49 are now taking a look.  When Toledo was 2T, some folks who would not have otherwise considered it started thinking about it.  When they slid to 3T, fewer people considered it.  Dropping into 4T is really bad. 

The rankings are imperfect, but any time you fall into a group that includes all the very worst law schools in the country, that's going to look bad. 

A 2nd tier school usually draws folks from all over the country.  The 4th tier schools are going to basically be commuter schools.  Figure OSU and Cinci are better and are also state schools.  CWRU is better, and only 2 hours away.  Almost nobody is going to leave, say, the Cleveland metro area to go to Toledo since they can go to CWRU, and if they can't get in there, they can just go to CSU. 

Even Akron is ranked higher than Toledo, now.  This is bad and the Law School really needs to get a hotshot dean to pull them out of this death spiral.

[WSUAlum1]

Hi FJ:

Thanks for the scoop.  I was surprised at Toledo's fall b/c the school was starting to make inroads in the Detroit area.  In the last year or so I've heard from three partners at mid-sized Detroit firms that they had hired Toledo clerks for the summer and were impressed w/ their work.   I suppose Toledo's drop is good for law grads in the Detroit area, since the market here is already bad.

[FalconJimmy]

Hi FJ:

Thanks for the scoop.  I was surprised at Toledo's fall b/c the school was starting to make inroads in the Detroit area.  In the last year or so I've heard from three partners at mid-sized Detroit firms that they had hired Toledo clerks for the summer and were impressed w/ their work.   I suppose Toledo's drop is good for law grads in the Detroit area, since the market here is already bad.

Maybe.  I think things just sorta suck everywhere.  The Detroit job market has a lot more problems than people coming up from Toledo to take their jobs.  It's just bleak all over.

[WSUAlum1]

FJ:

You are right about the Detroit job market: it's brutal, for non-lawyers and lawyers alike.  The sad thing is that a lot of people here need legal help, but just cannot afford it.  A bad economy produces bankruptcies, child support adjustments, divorces, DUIs, foreclosures, and plenty more besides.  In better times, people would stay and fight.  Now, they just pack up and leave.  Anyone in Michigan who wants to go to law school should think very hard about how well a degree will 'travel' before they commit to going $75-100K in debt.

"Wayne State: Worth it?"  Probably not.