Graduated and Passed the Bar, but stuck waiting tables. . . What now?

[oleg1244]

LOL!!!!!! john4040, you got owned

[bigs5068]

No he didn't. I was not trying to prove him wrong if anything I am trying to be supportive. I graduated from college had a cool six month job that expired looked for work for 7 weeks it was scary and awful and I thought why did I waste all my time getting a college degree. A lot of friends from high school went into construction and were and are doing alright for themselves and I had a piece of paper I spent 4 years getting a d incurred debt to receive. However, I kept going to my undergrads career service and got a job again. It was cool, but working for lawyers and not being one is not for me. I felt like I was on jv instead of varsity and here I am in school again. That same cycle I went through in college is going to happen most likely. Even if I somehow get some big law job right after graduation that pays a ton of money there will be days where I hate my job everyone has that. There were days I hated playing basketball and just wanted to quit, but life is full of ups and downs no matter what you do. None of the problems jd underground or other such sites list are exclusive to law school.

[john4040]

LOL!!!!!! john4040, you got owned

Can you read?

I've essentially been saying that law is a huge gamble - a gamble that has not been worth it from a cost/benefit standpoint.  In order to reach the upside above and beyond the medical field that law CAN (but rarely does) provide, you must overcome increasing tuition, increasing competition, and scarcity of demand.  I'm not sure how Bigs' somewhat speculative and possibly over-optimistic encouragement undermines this argument - but, I do thank him for the encouragement, nonetheless. 

You've already made yourself look incredibly stupid, so, I'll leave you with this little gem of advice for the future:  Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[bigs5068]

I really think you need to wait more than a year or so to call your legal career a failure. You are licensed to practice for the rest of your life and over 40 years not 1 you are more than likely to make 100,000 grand based on your j.d. That is the problem with our whole generation everybody just wants things to happen immediately. The simple fact is it cannot happen no matter what you do. I have not to seen to many 26 year old judges or big law partners. All my professors, judges, etc I have met talk about how hard it is to start out. Computer programmers, mbas, basketball coaches, cops, etc all have the same problem. It takes years of work and a lot of failures along the way to succeed in anything. However, if you sit in a corner saying poor me you are not going to get anywhere. It is really easy to complain, but hard to accomplish things.

If you think there are to many lawyers then try another field where there is not even a difficult basic competency rest i.e the bar to screen people out. Compared to other fields J.D holders are somewhat limited. 

[john4040]

That is the problem with our whole generation everybody just wants things to happen immediately.

The problem isn't that I want something to happen immediately, it's that approximately half of all law school graduates in the US are ending up unemployed, underemployed, or in jobs that they could get without a legal education.  There are way too few entry-level attorney jobs to support the supply that is pushed out every year.  I made - what I believe to be - a mistake.  I base this belief on the fact that my brother has fared incredibly well in his job search relative to my own search.  Although it's too early to tell whether my choice to attend law school will ultimately pay off, there were definitely better (from a cost/benefit standpoint) alternatives available.

I want others to know the truth about the legal market and the legal profession.  I want them to know that law school is becoming more and more of a fool's bet as tuition increases, additional grads are allowed to enter an incredibly over-saturated market, legal work is being outsourced, state bars are increasingly allowing foreigners to get LLMs in the US and sit for the bar, and the ABA is seriously considering allowing foreigners to complete legal education outside the US (which is the equivalent of college in the US) and sit for the bar.  The legal profession is in serious decline.  The decline has been exacerbated by many of the factors I have listed above - factors above and beyond just a "bad economy."  Take note of the decline and decide for yourself - with all available information - whether law school is right for you.  It's definitely not the same legal market that your dad grew up knowing.

[Hamilton]

John sums up the issue well in his last post.  The problem is compounded by the ABA and law schools.  The ABA is accrediting more law schools, more law schools are being opened, and law schools keep jacking up tuition from obscene to grossly obscene levels.  The ABA really needs to reign things in - but they wont do that so long as the law school dream is out there and folks keep coming.  Its too bad because more and more lives will be ruined by people taking on 6-figure debt that they will not be able to pay back in any reasonable manner.  Hard to begin a life when you are in a very deep hole.

[bigs5068]

I don't disagree with any of that. I in no way expected to be making 6 figures after graduating from GGU. I really think the real disservice is U.S. News. I thank god everyday I did not go to Michigan State paying full tuition and being stuck in Michigan to go to a tier 2 school instead of a tier 4 with a huge scholarship. To any potential student do not take these rankings seriously nobody cares if you go to the 72nd or 112th best school get out AS CHEAP AS POSSIBLE. If you are lucky enough to want to practice in a state that has in-state tuition schools go. Go to CUNY at 10k a year opposed to New York Law School where you pay 40k. Nobody cares that NYLS is tier 2 & CUNY is tier 4. You either go to an ELITE SCHOOL that is a school that EVERYBODY KNOWS I.E. Harvard or Yale and a few other ELITE SCHOOLS. Otherwise take scholarship money it is well worth it in my opinion. As long as U.S. News continues ot pump out these retarded rankings a lot more peoploe going to be disappointed. I have given the example that I knew now 9 students that transferred from GGU who had basically full scholarships for their 2L year to go to tier 2 schools USF, Santa Clara, and Hastings. They ended up in firms working alongside their 1L section mates, but had 70k more in debt to payoff. People follow these U.S. rankings, which absoulty no basis and trick students into thinking that if they go to the 53rd best school the floodgates will open. However, there are only a few schools that will have firms crowding the career service office and that is Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Georgetown and a few others. Otherwise nobody cares if you are 62 or 132. The career service office is not going to be flooded with firms at USF, Gonzaga, Hofstra, etc. You are either ELITE or your not at the end of the day, but U.S. News continues to rack in money by ranking anything you can possibly imagine and tricking young scared students.

One other additonal thing all schools everywhere are increasing their tuition. Education everywhere is becoming more and more of a rip-off and Congress or someone should jump in and make schools justify their ridiculous increases every year. Once your in a school if they jack up tuition you can't even do anything. The whole system seems to violate the Sherman Act to me, because you can't even do anything. You have to get an education to have any chance really, but they keep jacking up prices and this applies to everything.

[oleg1244]

bigs5068,
My law advisor told me that going to McGeorge puts you in a much better position for a job than GGU when comparing for example, two students with similar class standing. Do you agree with that? Would a firm choose a McGeorge candidate over a GGU candidate if they have similar class standing?

[bigs5068]

Yea that is true, but the law advisor needs to look a lot deeper.  My law advisor gave me the same advice go to the best school you can possibly get into and that is absolutely true if Harvard or Stanford is an option, but that is terrible advice for the majority of people with a 155 160 on their LSAT.  The simple fact is nobody is going to be that impressed by McGeorge or GGU. It is going to be up to you to secure placement and unless you finish at the top 20% at either school nobody is going to be tracking you down and even then probably not. Also do not forget there is an 80% chance you will not finish in the top 20%. No offense to your intelligence, but 100% of students think they are going to be in the top 10% and although I am no math major even I can see how that will play out.

There are pros and cons to each school. The main reason in this instance I would choose GGU is the matter of cost. They are both outrageously priced McGeorge at 38k and GGU at 36K. However, with your numbers I would ballpark a 25k scholarship for you at GGU. So you will pay 11k in tuition money opposed to McGeorge where you may or may not get a 5k scholarship based on what I have seen on lawschoolnumbers. So you will pay 33K a year in the best case scenario 38k at worst.

GGU 11K a year McGeorge 33k x  3years=

So odds are 33K in tuition over three years at GGU opposed to 99k from McGeorge or 114k if you don't get the 5k scholarship over 3 years at McGeorge.

Cost of living in SF is much higher so maybe you will take out 40k in grad plus loans over three years. I don't know your lifestyle opposed to maybe 30k for McGeorge for living over three years. If you work at all during 2nd or 3rd year to can minimize this debt a bit and I strongly recommend doing that.

So end of J.D. cost 73K from GGU or 130K from McGeorge best case scenario or 145k worse case: 57K best case or 72k worse case more in Debt at McGeorge. That is a big number to pay off. So you have to ask yourself is going to a tier 2 school worth 70k more than a tier 4?? In my opinion I do not think so especially considering from either school you are going to have to fight to get a job. As I said McGeorge or GGU is not going to wow anyone.

Another plus for GGU or the Bay Area School in general is better professors. The reality is nobody wants to live in Sacramento top professors choose to live in San Francisco. There are exceptions, but in the Bay Area the same professors that teach at Berkley, Hastings, USF, Santa Clara, teach at GGU. We no joke have the same professors and if you need to prove of that. Look no further than the Bay Area Consortium of law schools this includes all of those schools above and you can take classes at Berkley, USF, Hastings or Santa Clara if you want. So you literally would get the same education, but you do not even need to leave the GGU campus to get the same professors at those schools, because they come to us.  Look them up Peter Keane, Jon Sylvester, both F***ing awesome by the way there are other guys Michael Zamperrini, Marc Greenberg and a whole list of others who I have not taken yet, but they teach at our school and those ones as well. So the quality of professors is generally higher in the Bay Area, because it attracts better people.  Most people would choose the Bay over Sacramento sorry to offend anybody, but that is generally true.  This Bay Area Consortium also allows you to use other schools employment websites and I have had 3 OCI interviews at Hastings this far.

Now one huge reason to go to McGeorge is if you want to live in Sacramento. If you have family etc and want to live in Sacramento or work for the California Government then no better place to be than the Capital of California. Otherwise I really do not think it is worth the extra 50-70kk in tuition you will pay at McGeorge.

So while it is true if you finish in the top 17% at McGeorge or GGU you might have more options, but again nobody is going to be bend over backwards for a McGeorge or GGU grad. So get out as cheaply as possible. Another thing to think about although I hate to say it is that the competition will probably be easier at GGU than at McGeorge. People with lower stats attend GGU than McGeorge although the difference is somewhat nominal 3-4 points on the LSAT, but still it is something. So your chances of finishing in the top 10% at GGU would be better than at McGeorge. If you finish in the top 10% at any ABA school your chances are good.


One word of caution about GGU is the 3.0 scholarship requirement. I do not know if McGeorge has this and you need to maintain a 3.0 to maintain your scholarship a 3.0 in law school is nothing like it is in college. If you lose your scholarship for the second and third year then a lot of what I said is made moot. So that is a gamble, but if you work hard you can probably maintain the scholarship, but the reality is there is no way to know how you will do in law school.

Quite a rant, but hopefully those facts are somewhat helpful. Also do remember I am only a second year law student and take what I say with a major grain of salt. I still have a lot to learn about everything and the law advisor and others are  likely much more knowledgeable than me, but I think what I listed above our are relevant factors to consider.

[MEMEMEME]

That is the problem with our whole generation everybody just wants things to happen immediately.

The problem isn't that I want something to happen immediately, it's that approximately half of all law school graduates in the US are ending up unemployed, underemployed, or in jobs that they could get without a legal education.  There are way too few entry-level attorney jobs to support the supply that is pushed out every year.  I made - what I believe to be - a mistake.  I base this belief on the fact that my brother has fared incredibly well in his job search relative to my own search.  Although it's too early to tell whether my choice to attend law school will ultimately pay off, there were definitely better (from a cost/benefit standpoint) alternatives available.

I want others to know the truth about the legal market and the legal profession.  I want them to know that law school is becoming more and more of a fool's bet as tuition increases, additional grads are allowed to enter an incredibly over-saturated market, legal work is being outsourced, state bars are increasingly allowing foreigners to get LLMs in the US and sit for the bar, and the ABA is seriously considering allowing foreigners to complete legal education outside the US (which is the equivalent of college in the US) and sit for the bar.  The legal profession is in serious decline.  The decline has been exacerbated by many of the factors I have listed above - factors above and beyond just a "bad economy."  Take note of the decline and decide for yourself - with all available information - whether law school is right for you.  It's definitely not the same legal market that your dad grew up knowing.

On Preptest 37, there is an RC passage about how people are willing to take bigger risks to recoupe or prevent further losses. They don't care if there is a high likelihood of failure, because they feel they must do it. Without going into detail, this is what I am experiencing and I am sure what a lot of people experience to a lesser extent when they pursue a graduate degree during a recession. Also, all this naysaying and negativity seems to come from the young people. Not one older lawyer or other person in the legal profession who I have told that I am applying to law school told me it was a bad idea. People may say that this is because everything was different when they were starting out and they are financially secure because of experience, etc.; but I look at it is as they have a more rounded view of life and its cycles.