First Term at Cooley

[bigs5068]

I have seen it happen first hand. Student's from every law school have been in court opposing each other and when there is an actual case pending the name of your law school means jack. The judge does not say well I believe this girl is lying about being raped because defense counsel went to Harvard. If you get a case to trial the last thing on anyone's mind is what law school the other attorney went to.

You are right that the better lawyer may not always win a case. The facts play a crucial role, I mean had the greatest lawyer of all time had to defend Geoffrey Dhamer he probably would have lost to me. However, the difference between Cooley and Harvard is that the Harvard student will generally get the better clients. That is one of the reasons anybody would choose Harvard over Cooley. Cooley is a fine school and I have known successful lawyers from there, but you cannot possibly argue that Cooley is a better school than Harvard.

[the white rabbit]

I have seen it happen first hand. Student's from every law school have been in court opposing each other and when there is an actual case pending the name of your law school means jack. The judge does not say well I believe this girl is lying about being raped because defense counsel went to Harvard. If you get a case to trial the last thing on anyone's mind is what law school the other attorney went to.

This doesn't answer my question. 

[bigs5068]

In San Francisco Courts they see each other. There are people from every single ABA school here and CBA schools as well. They all litigate against each other, since they are lawyers after all. I have seen about 100 trials in the last year and attorney's school never comes up, but out of curiosity I look the lawyers up on the California Bar website to see what school they went to. So far I have seen people from schools as unknown  as University of West Los Angeles School of law up to schools like Harvard. San Francisco is a destination for a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds and if they are lawyers they can and do end up in court against eachother.

[Hamilton]

No, but it does come up when interviewing to actually get into those law firms.  It's a buyer's market for law firms -- firms that did not generally have access to T1 grads now do.  There IS a pecking order and when the firm is going to interview 5 people and they have resumes from a slew of T1s, T2s, and T3/4s, who do you think will NOT get called in for interviews?  Perhaps a top 5% T3/4 student will get a look.  If you dont get on with a firm of high-caliber lawyers, you do not learn high-caliber skills.  Where you go to school matters b/c it affects where you get a job.  Where you get a job matters b/c it affects the level of skill you will learn.

How many players does the NBA draft from Division I versus Division II?  Law school ranking is no different.

I went to a T4, be honest, how many times have you sat in a class and thought that person X had no business being in law school, or knew that person was not going to make it?  Those people lowered the performance bar for all of us and the T1s have far fewer of the bar-lowerers.  Schools with lower GPA and LSAT score requirements get far more people that probably should not be there.  Sure they deserve the opportunity, but if a school like Cooley is going to take their money, they should not bemoan the rep they get for having lower admission standards.

In San Francisco Courts they see each other. There are people from every single ABA school here and CBA schools as well. They all litigate against each other, since they are lawyers after all. I have seen about 100 trials in the last year and attorney's school never comes up, but out of curiosity I look the lawyers up on the California Bar website to see what school they went to. So far I have seen people from schools as unknown  as University of West Los Angeles School of law up to schools like Harvard. San Francisco is a destination for a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds and if they are lawyers they can and do end up in court against eachother.

[bigs5068]

I never said Cooley is the same as Harvard. Obviously, you will have an uphill battle from Cooley or a tier 3/4 over opposed to Harvard or an Ivy League . Had a top 10 school accepted me as a 1L  then that is where I would be, and that should be the logic for anyone. However, the name of your school can only take you so far and when you get outside the top 25-50 schools I don't think the name means anything really.   So you are right the name of your school matters, nobody is debating that. However, the individual student's performance etc matters as well. 

[the white rabbit]

In San Francisco Courts they see each other. There are people from every single ABA school here and CBA schools as well. They all litigate against each other, since they are lawyers after all. I have seen about 100 trials in the last year and attorney's school never comes up, but out of curiosity I look the lawyers up on the California Bar website to see what school they went to. So far I have seen people from schools as unknown  as University of West Los Angeles School of law up to schools like Harvard. San Francisco is a destination for a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds and if they are lawyers they can and do end up in court against eachother.

Look, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.  I'm asking where it happens with regularity.  Biglaw types generally go up against other biglaw types, so the Harvard alumni are generally facing off against each other (or other top school grads).  Also for the record, I'm not saying that Cooley alumni never beat Harvard alumni at trial; I'm asking where they see each other enough that you can see a trend.

In general though, I agree that reputation in trial comes in not through school name.

[bigs5068]

Of course no debate about it Biglaw firms can generally drown a little solo practioner from Cooley or GGU out, before it ever get to trial. Not every Harvard graduate is in Biglaw and not every GGU graduate is a solo practioner. I think me and you are saying the same thing basically, and there is no question that a top tier school will open more doors. I hope anyone considering law school is at lesat intelligent enough to realize Harvard and Cooley are not equal schools.

Let me ask you this White Rabbit, I assume you enjoy the legal profession. What would you have done if you got a 155 on the LSAT. Lets you tried your ass off and 155 was the best you could do, would you have still gone to law school?

[the white rabbit]

Let me ask you this White Rabbit, I assume you enjoy the legal profession. What would you have done if you got a 155 on the LSAT. Lets you tried your ass off and 155 was the best you could do, would you have still gone to law school?

Frankly, I probably would not have.  I like working as a lawyer fine enough, but I don't have to be a lawyer.  I could have and would have found something else to do with my life.

[bigs5068]

Okay and lets say you could not get into a top 10 school for anything. Say you wanted to be a teacher, but you could only get into San Jose State and everyone says no your crazy. Or a computer scientist same issue, I mean you are speaking from a point of view that you are very luck to have. Seeing as how you have no backup plan that you ever thought of it is pretty easy to say go to a t14 or bust. That is because you nailed the LSAT and probably the SAT. Which, again is awesome I wish I got a 180 on my LSAT or had been 7'2 and been able to the NBA. However, 99% of the world is not "gifted" and don't have a million doors open to them. Most people are content to get a decent paying job in a field they enjoy. A tier 3/4 degree can provide that, it won't work out everytime and it might turn out miserably, the lower down the totem pole you go the more of a risk you are taking. This is not news or should be news to any tier 3/4 student, or tier 4 dental school, med school, nursing school, etc. 

I don't what else to say you went to a top 10 school, and I assume as a result of that you had astronomically different expectations than I did of law school. Yes you probably would be disappointed with my school compared to experience. Bill Gates would laugh at the numbers in your bank account, he has different expectations. I got an awesome paying summer job, but who knows if they will hire me at graduation, but I will honestly be stoked to make 60,000 coming out of school. I am sure you would probably have been disappointed with that coming out of your school.

[Hamilton]

THIS is where I think you are wrong - it IS news to many.  Law schools and the ABA are not doing anything to warn people who they darn well know should not be getting sucked into law school and wracking up unreasonable debt.  The playing field is a lot more even for a teacher from Mid Cowpie State College vs University of Big State than it is for T4 vs T1 law schools.  And the T4 law degree can still cost $100K - THAT is the big difference.

A tier 3/4 degree can provide that, it won't work out everytime and it might turn out miserably, the lower down the totem pole you go the more of a risk you are taking. This is not news or should be news to any tier 3/4 student, or tier 4 dental school, med school, nursing school, etc.