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Author Topic: Externships/Internships  (Read 1972 times)

barond

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Externships/Internships
« on: June 29, 2010, 11:08:47 PM »
I don't really know the difference, but I just got an email about an Intellectual Property externship for the fall semester. Its unpaid, but you get credit. Its a really well known manufacturer who claim to introduce you to in house/out house counsel differences and many other things.

How difficult is it to get these positions and is it wise to do so?

Joey Porsche

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 11:54:59 PM »
Out house counsel?


Such an externship is probably not as valuable as a judicial externship but i guess it's all about what you want to do with your career.

john4040

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 02:01:25 PM »
I don't really know the difference, but I just got an email about an Intellectual Property externship for the fall semester. Its unpaid, but you get credit. Its a really well known manufacturer who claim to introduce you to in house/out house counsel differences and many other things.

How difficult is it to get these positions and is it wise to do so?


Externships are usually done while attending school.  Internships are usually done while not in school (e.g., during the summer).  Because more time is usually spent in an Internship, class credit is more often granted for an Internship than it is for Externship.

We need to know more information before we can determine how difficult it is to obtain one of these positions.  (Who is the manufacturer, what is the nature of work you would perform for them, where is the internship located, who would oversee you, what sort of contacts would you develop, could it lead to permanent employment, etc.?)

Michigan_Saintsfan

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 05:57:52 AM »
I clerked at a court one summer. I mostly felt like it was a civil procedure course but there's value in that I guess. It's helpful to see how stuff works at a court--behind the scenes. I also learned quite a bit about the firms who practice at that court from their filings and discovery disputes. I drafted the opinion in a case of 1st impression and that was the main benefit--a great writing sample. The money wasn't all that much.

My externship with a tax firm exposed me to a lot more of the substantive law and I made better contacts and learned a ton. It really was a lot of fun. The only downside was using a lot of credits for pass/fail and not playing the GPA game.

john4040

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 05:49:13 PM »
I clerked at a court one summer.... The money wasn't all that much.

Just out of curiosity, what court pays its "clerks" to work only a single summer?  Every court I know of takes in interns or externs during the summer.  These are not paid positions nor are they clerkships.

Michigan_Saintsfan

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 02:59:57 AM »
The Michigan Tax Tribunal pays student clerks to work a single summer. Students are called clerks there but "clerkships" is a word chosen by you and one that I declined to use.

I thought it would be helpful as a first gig for tax but working at a firm was better for the reasons stated above.

Okie dokie?

john4040

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 06:29:20 AM »
The Michigan Tax Tribunal pays student clerks to work a single summer. Students are called clerks there but "clerkships" is a word chosen by you and one that I declined to use.

I thought it would be helpful as a first gig for tax but working at a firm was better for the reasons stated above.

Okie dokie?

If your official position was "clerk" rather than intern or extern, you were paid for your services, and you did the same type of work as a "judicial law clerk", it stands to reason that you were, in fact, in a "clerkship."  I don't fault you for referring to yourself as a clerk because it appears that the Tribunal itself cannot properly distinguish between the two: It calls the program the "Law Clerk Program", states that "The Tribunal has no specific limit to the number of externs (or interns if they are earning credit for their clerkship at their respective law schools) that are hired for a clerkship" (http://www.michigan.gov/taxtrib/0,1607,7-187-39032_39706-139276--,00.html), and refers to its interns and externs as "Judicial law clerks" (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/taxtrib/MTT_Organizational_011609_268631_7.pdf). Nevertheless, I find it highly laughable that they can distinguish (incorrectly) between an internship and externship but cannot manage to divorce the two from a clerkship.  IMO, a "clerk" is in a "clerkship", an "intern" is in an "internship", an "extern" is in an "externship", and a summer associate is in an "associateship."  The terms and their respective counterparts are mutually exclusive (Although I have seen the word "clerk" commonly used to refer to summer associates, it is incorrect and significantly less egregious to call a summer associate a "clerk" because there is no similar position within law firms).

With judicial internship and externship programs on the rise, I have noticed that firms are increasingly referring to their attorneys as undertaking "clerkships", being "judicial clerks", and "clerking" for a judge when their attorneys were nothing more than interns or externs.  I submit to you that this sort of behavior is unethical, deceptive, and nothing short of a fraud on clients who traditionally paid a premium for clerkship experience.

Michigan_Saintsfan

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 09:11:50 PM »
While working at a court one day
In the merry month of may
I did not earn any school credit
But merely exchanged my work for pay.

No one had used the word clerkship,
The court just called me a clerk.
And if you're suggesting the court is "unethical"
That makes you kind of a jerk.

So glad when I externed at a firm
It endeavored to make the distinction
That students are externs
To comport with your opinion.

The world is not coming to an end.
You should really consider the facts:
No one confuses summer jobs with clerkships
So take the weekend to relax.



john4040

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 11:14:29 PM »
No one had used the word clerkship,
The court just called me a clerk.
And if you're suggesting the court is "unethical"
That makes you kind of a jerk.

The court itself uses the word "clerkship":
"The Tribunal has no specific limit to the number of externs (or interns if they are earning credit for their clerkship at their respective law schools) that are hired for a clerkship" (See http://www.michigan.gov/taxtrib/0,1607,7-187-39032_39706-139276--,00.html)

I'm not suggesting that your court is unethical.  I'm suggesting that the person who set up the internship/externship program at the Michigan Tax Tribunal is too f-ing ignorant to distinguish between an internship or externship and a clerkship.  Although their ignorance should neither be encouraged or perpetuated, it is not unethical.  Law firms that blatantly misrepresent the truth are unethical.

No one confuses summer jobs with clerkships

They do when firms call the summer job with a judge a "clerkship" or call judicial interns and externs "judicial law clerks", "clerks", or "judicial clerks".

REALITY

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Re: Externships/Internships
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 11:19:40 PM »
Make sure your undergrad is in a science field, otherwise it's a waste of time since even though someone with a science degree can skip the JD to take the patentbar(includes "intellectual property") Most JD grads CAN'T sit it, even with a full JD and having passed the state bar. It still requries an undergrad science degree. Are you sure that yours qualifies?(not all do)

I don't really know the difference, but I just got an email about an Intellectual Property externship for the fall semester. Its unpaid, but you get credit. Its a really well known manufacturer who claim to introduce you to in house/out house counsel differences and many other things.

How difficult is it to get these positions and is it wise to do so?