Tier 4 Law Schools

[Morten Lund]

I am interested that Texas article I put in 30 seconds of google searching, but have given up.

Even regarding the ranking the regional schools does not seem to be of that much value I have heard from so many people that transferred from GGU to Hastings, Santa Clara, and USF and expect some unbelievable doors to open up, but they are unsatisfied and in more debt because honestly all four of those schools are just mediocre

California really is a special case, for several reasons.  In the rest of the country things aren't that extreme, and someone planning on the Midwest would be interested in Northwestern vs. Columbia, or Loyola vs. Marquette.  Or, in Texas, Harvard vs. Texas.

BTW - the Onion "article" I mentioned above is pretty old and not available online, as far as I know.  The full headline, and also the full article, was "Harvard educated Texan can't decide which to mention first," or something very close to that.

[MeganEW]

...
Just to go off another regional ranking tanget L.A. it is the same as the Bay Area I mean there is UCLA & USC. Those are bad-ass schools, but really is a Loyola Marymount graduate going to have more employers than someone from Southwestern begging them to work for the firm. That is the same logic in New York as well I am sure Columbia and NYU will open doors, but will Brooklyn do anymore for you than Fordham or Cardozo? I could be wrong, but when I worked in New York there were a ton of lawyers who worked together from school's of varyign rank and the ones that were most satisfied with their schools were the ones that went to CUNY and that is because they all almost no debt based on CUNY's in-state tuition. Some people got to pay 90K more for a prestigious tier 2 degree from Rutgers, but they ended in the same spot. Now the person in charge of everyone on my team went to Penn, which again is a baller school and it probably helped her obtain promotions etc. However, Rutgers, CUNY, New York Law School, Hofstra, Seton Hall, etc are not going to put you on the fast track to anything they will get you to the same spot and you will have to prove you are a good attorney. I am sure all of those schools provide you with the basis to become competent, , but you will need to put the work in.  So  unless you are going to an elite school go to the one that will get out with the least debt.

Brooklyn won't do more than Fordham or Cardozo in NY (unless, perhaps, the hiring attorney is a Brooklyn alumnus) as it is ranked lower than the other two. Will Fordham open more doors than the other two, though?  Um, yeah.  Definitely.  Fordham feeds into Big Law, not as much as NYU and Columbia, but it does.  It's respectable in the eyes of Big Law recruiting committees.  Cardozo was feeding into Big Law in NY when the market was good, but I've been advised by Big Law attorneys to not even apply.
After Fordham, though, it is regional.  I do know NY Law (T3) attorneys in good jobs... but those jobs were secured in a different market.  So, will the jobs all get shifted down?  Will those good jobs that had been going to NY Law grads now go to Brooklyn Law grads?  ...Because those that had been going to Brooklyn law grads are now going to Cardozo grads who can no longer land the Big Law gigs?  Not sure.  But I can say with confidence that Fordham (T1) opens far more doors than Brooklyn (T2).

[bigs5068]

Maybe, but are you speaking from first hand experience or just basing it on the fact that some judge in Nebraska selected the very good instead of good when Fordham came up. Also how many big law attorneys do you know from Fordham I am sure there are some, but how many are going without. Again, I will use the bay as an example Hastings is a tier 1 I think, but they graduate twice as many students as the other schools. They have more attorneys in big law than GGU, Santa Clara, USF, but I also know a lot of unemployed people from Hastings and not so much the other schools. They pump out a ton of grads some make it some do not. Again, if you are a working attorney or hiring partner at some firm I will respect your opinion over mine, but honestly nobody outside of New York has heard of Fordham just as nobody outside of California has heard of Hastings despite their tier 1 ranking, which is gained literally by uninformed people feeling in a scantron of very good, good, etc. I though Brooklyn was tier 1 awhile ago and I am pretty sure it was and that just goes to show with schools like that by the time you graduate they might be in the tier 2's or you can go to a tier 2 or tier 3 that ends up in tier 1 by the time you graduate. The formula makes NO sense and that is why it varies so much from year to year.

[MeganEW]

Maybe, but are you speaking from first hand experience or just basing it on the fact that some judge in Nebraska selected the very good instead of good when Fordham came up. Also how many big law attorneys do you know from Fordham I am sure there are some, but how many are going without. Again, I will use the bay as an example Hastings is a tier 1 I think, but they graduate twice as many students as the other schools. They have more attorneys in big law than GGU, Santa Clara, USF, but I also know a lot of unemployed people from Hastings and not so much the other schools. They pump out a ton of grads some make it some do not. Again, if you are a working attorney or hiring partner at some firm I will respect your opinion over mine, but honestly nobody outside of New York has heard of Fordham just as nobody outside of California has heard of Hastings despite their tier 1 ranking, which is gained literally by uninformed people feeling in a scantron of very good, good, etc. I though Brooklyn was tier 1 awhile ago and I am pretty sure it was and that just goes to show with schools like that by the time you graduate they might be in the tier 2's or you can go to a tier 2 or tier 3 that ends up in tier 1 by the time you graduate. The formula makes NO sense and that is why it varies so much from year to year.

Looking at 9 of the top 10 firms according to Vault (I don't see an easy way to search by law school on Weil's website), there are roughly 160 attorneys from Fordham and 80 from Brooklyn.  That's total attorneys in the firm, which includes those who have been practicing for decades, those who may have lateraled in with clients, and those who joined the firms when they were less impressive firms. 
I don't have time to map out the trend at the moment, but the pattern that I witnessed at the NY BigLaw firm where I worked for 3 1/2 years was that it was becoming more competitive.  They recruited from Brooklyn and Cardozo in 2006.  By 2007, Brooklyn was off the list.  By 2010, Cardozo was off the list.  Who knows, maybe in a few years, the only NY schools they'll recruit from will be NYU and Columbia, but at least for now, Fordham is still on the list. 

Fordham is a good brand, though.  I know I spent the last 8 years in NYC, but I grew up in the Midwest and had heard of Fordham before moving out East.  I'm a little shocked to read that you think no one outside of NY has heard of Fordham.  You and I are a sample size of 2 with different anecdotes, so I can't really negate your opinion with mine, but I will challenge it.

[bigs5068]

I am sure some people have heard of Fordham and again you were closer geographically if you were in the Midwest than I was in California. You made no mention that you have heard of Hastings, which is basically equivalent to Fordham in the rankings. Again, Biglaw does happen I don't doubt it would be easier to make Biglaw from Fordham than Cardozo. However, I would imagine you need to be in the top 15-20% at Fordham to even get a big law interview. There is an 80% chance that won't happen and even if you are in the 15-20% you are still competing against NYU and Columbia. Also you mentioned pure numbers in regards to Fordham, Cardozo, and Brooklyn. In that instance it works out, because they all have roughly the same number of JD's awarded so using pure numbers is a decent measure. In California it is different Hastings tier 1 gives out 500 J.D.'s , while my school gave out 184. There are certainly more big law hires from Hastings than GGU, but they have 3 times as many graduates so I would hope so and they are a more reputable school as well, but I know a lot of Hastings students not doing so hot as well. It doesn't look to be the same in New York as California, but a lot of the so-called higher ranked schools in California just pump out a ton of graduates and a few will make it of course and they can say we had 80 big law hires, yea 100 are unemployed now, but we don't mention that.

In all honestly Big-Law does not happen for most students unless you go to the Elite Schools or at least that is my understanding. It is like getting drafted in sports I mean even at Duke or North Carolina the majority of the guys are not going to the NBA and well get some less lucrative European contract that plenty of low D1 and D2 players can get. If Biglaw is your one and only goal then take the rankings extremely seriously, but realize the odds of getting a biglaw job are pretty minimal. 

[goheels22002]

It's dangerous to say avoid all T4 law schools at all costs.  The ABA accredited ones give serious people a chance and often lots of sinancial aid to pursue a career they want.  If there's some entitlement to a big payday at a white shoe law firm as the goal, then you really better be ready to work your butt off and be a top ten student which means you're motivated and willing to head into the grinder that is Big Law for associates with less job security now than ever before.  T4s do a great job of preparing people for solid careers in the law and the good ones make sure well over 90% of their 1st-time bar exam takers pass and can actually go out there and practice or start on a career in the public sector. Many are very good at preparing students for careers in elected office with appropriate stops early on in criminal law on one side or the other.  It boils down to knowing what you want and determining if the school you pick will help you get there.

[bigs5068]

Well I am behind that. Again, what the difference between even a tier 2,3, or 4 school is I really do not know. I am sure no BigLaw firm is lining up to hand Gonzaga grads jobs or Maine, Stetson, Southwestern, Santa Clara, Cooley, FIU, Williamette, etc. Unless you are going to a school whose existence does not need to be explained i.e Harvard, Yale, Stanford etc nobody cares.  Nobody is handing jobs out to the 182nd best student at the 62nd best school. They are not certainly not handing jobs out to the 111th best student at the 112th school either. The rankings are absolutely retarded and make no sense. You might as well take a scholarship and get out of law school as cheaply as possible. Also as shocking as it might be the law does not change when you learn it at the 43rd or 98th best school. Consideration, Negligence, all that stuff is EXACTLY the same. Crazy I know, but the law does not change when a tier 4 grad makes an argument in court.

[Squirrelballs]

Going to ANY law school nowadays is a gamble...they're just too many lawyers and not enough decent-to high-paying gigs. You really think the average law firm or public office gives a *&^% whether you went to Steston (second tier) or Villanova (fourth tier)....They don't care....The saturation of lawyers into the overwhelmed market means they'll hire whomever will work for the sofa change plus health benefits they throw your way. Law schools all overcharge. None of them are worth it nowadays. If you want to rake up a $100K debt to HOPE to make $45K a year, go right ahead.