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Author Topic: Tier 4 Law Schools  (Read 32325 times)

bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2010, 01:33:27 PM »
I agree, avoid a Tier 4 school at all costs. Schools like Widener Law, take your money, enhance the curve and fail out 25% of students in their first year.  Its not worth it. Wait or retake the LSATS or try and get into a better school

That is b.s. no tier 4 fails out 25% of their school that is so ignorant I can't stand it. You know how I know that is not true? Because I actually go to a tier 4 and made it past the first year and 25% did not fail out. Look at LSAC attrition and realize the difference between academic attrition and other. The other category for the most part means people that did very well and transferred to higher ranked schools. Why would a school fail out 25% of their class!?

nealric

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2010, 02:08:49 PM »
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Why would a school fail out 25% of their class!?

Bar passage. Texas Southern, in particular had a 60% bar passage at one point. It was so bad they were in danger of losing accreditation. Your school may not fail out 25% of the class, but at least some academic attrition is a mathematical certainty at many T4 schools with their low curves.
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Haynes7

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2010, 02:15:11 PM »
Go Bigs! 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that going to a T4 is ideal.  I feel like the proponents of T1 schools are willfully misunderstanding the other side.  No one says that T4 is better than T1.  All we are saying is T4 is better than T0.  Why is this such a difficult thing to understand?

How does it make you all feel knowing that there are people out there getting law degree's a T4 schools?  Angry?  Sad?  Lonely?

Plus I love how ya'll keep saying that you are giving this advice because you know us and care about us and don't want us to ruin our lives by going to a crap law school.  You know what...it is presumptuous and rude.  The only people who care about Ivy League schools are people who went to Ivy League schools and that is relatively few people. 




nealric

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2010, 02:50:43 PM »
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All we are saying is T4 is better than T0.  Why is this such a difficult thing to understand?

How does it make you all feel knowing that there are people out there getting law degree's a T4 schools?  Angry?  Sad?  Lonely?

I think both sides misunderstand eachother.

Most anti-T-4 people ARE saying that T-0 is better than T-4. The point is that it's better not to go to law school than attend a T-4. I don't necessarily take that opinion- but that is  the opinion of the anti T-4 people. True, there are snobs out there- but very few people on LSD are arguing against T4 schools from the snob perspective.

Additionally, with a few exceptions, anti-T4 people are NOT out to insult people who actually attend T4 schools. Instead, they are trying to prevent those who are considering T4 schools from attending. There is a huge difference.

You are free and reasonable to disagree with the above statements, but I think you are misrepresenting the other side.

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The only people who care about Ivy League schools are people who went to Ivy League schools and that is relatively few people

This is a total straw man. The choice is not between going to Cooley or Harvard. The choice is usually more like Cooley vs. Mich State, or Cal-Western v. USD.
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bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2010, 03:19:15 PM »
Here is the curve from my school's handbook it did not paste very well on this site, but you can see that there is no mandatory fail out, but they do fail people out that they think cannot pass the bar. If you are get straight C+'s you will not fail out and as you can see the curve below that is possible for 100% of the students to get a C+.  In fact 90% of the class can get an A or B. However, it would be wrong to keep somebody in school that had straight C-'s because it would be unlikely they would pass the bar.

Just like it would be wrong for a personal trainer to charge a 5'11 slow white 100's of dollars telling him he has a chance to go to the NBA if he keeps working out with him.

Or even that famous contract case with the old lady and the dance lessons.  Taking somebody's money when it seems apparent they will not accomplish the basic thing such as passing the bar is wrong. You can go to Georgetown or Harvard and be #1 in your class and never pass the bar and you will be less marketable as an attorney than someone who finished dead last at Cooley and passed the bar.




GGU Grading Curve
2. JD Grade Curves
a. First year Required Courses
All JD first year required courses, as defined in section D above, whether taken in the first year of a full-time program or in the second year of a part-time program, will be graded on the curve set out below:


A- and above
20% Maximum
5% Minimum
B- and above
70% Maximum
45% Minimum
C- and below
20% Maximum
10% Minimum
D and below
5% Maximum
0% Minimum

bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2010, 03:23:50 PM »
How does this strike you don't go to Georgetown or Harvard everybody there is snobby rich kids who don't know how to socially interact with people. They are all total nerds who will never have a social life. All people at those schools do is study and live lonely lives because they are completely incapable of relating to other people. I know that if I get it in an interview with a guy from Georgetown I will wipe the floor with them because I have so much more real life experience.

Then everybody from Georgetown or Harvard is solely in the law to make money they don't care about anybody, but themselves. They all kill eachother to get a top grade nobody is supportive at those schools they would kill their grandmother to get a better grade than you.

HOW IGNORANT IS ALL OF THAT? None of that is true I am sure I actually have no idea, because I have never set foot on either campus.  I am sure there is somebody that goes to Georgetown or Harvard that does fit that mold perfectly, but the majority probably do not. Just like there are some tier 4 grads that never get jobs or pass the bar, but just because one person fits the mold does not mean everybody does. Even at that school you named 60% of the students passed the bar. If 60% of people in the same situation as you are capable of doing something then the problem with the other 40% probably lies with them not their background. If 20% or so were passing the bar then there is a real problem, but if over 50% of people situated in the same position as you are able to do something and you can't the problem is probably with you. It is not that you did not work hard or anything, but law is a very competitive field just like sports.

I will bring my basketball experience again in college I was more highly recruited than my roommate and I was set to start over him and I worked hard, but he worked harder. I was taller and stronger than him, but he worked his ass off he never quit and he beat me out. It is not my coaches fault, it is not my high schools fault, it is not some random high school teammate's fault, it is not El Nino's fault, it was my own that he beat me out.  He worked harder than me although I worked hard and there is nobody to blame for how that turned out other than myself. The law is very similar to sports and simply putting in a decent or even good effort is not going to cut it you have to kill yourself particularly if you go to a tier 4.

How do you think Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant became the greatest players in the world? Genetics not really there are plenty of 6'7  athletic guys out there the NBA is full of them, but those two have an undying work ethic and they win championships & MVPS. There is no question Lebron James has more natural talent than either of those guys, but he is kind of lazy and he has 0 rings. He does work hard, but he is more concerned about marketing himself than winning and it shows when the playoffs start and by the amount of championship rings he has.

I could make millions more analogies about that, but you have to take accountability for yourself. If you choose to go to a tier 4 law school then you should expect to work harder to find a job etc than somebody who goes to Harvard. I will use another basketball analogy that if you go to Harvard or Cornell it is like being a 7'0 high school player you will get a scholarship if you just put in a half assed effort just like if you go to Harvard or something you can probalby find a decent job by putting in a half-assed effort. You have just an awesome natural ability if you are 7'0 or were smart enough to get into Harvard and that's awesome. I wish I would have been 7'4 and gone to the NBA and if not that have been naturally smart enough to be able to pull a 180 on my LSAT, but like 99% of the population I was not born with either of those things.

Going to at tier 4 is like being 6'6 in basketball you have a decent shot at being a good player, but you are going to have to bust your ass to get a scholarship and if you sit around complaining about how unfair it is that there are guys that are 7'2 playing against you, well then your not going to make it. Charles Barkley & Karl Malone were undersized guys, but they played their asses off and probably put more work in one day to being a good player than Shaq has his entire career. All 3 of those guys are hall of fame player, but Charles & Karl had to put in 100x more effort than Shaq ever did because they were not born 7'2 340 pounds and super athletic.

Bottom line is you have to work your ass of at any law school and there are no guarantees and that is true in all aspects of life. Some people are going to have it easier some people are just naturally good, but you are responsible for you and your decisions.

nealric

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2010, 03:32:13 PM »
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HOW IGNORANT IS ALL OF THAT? None of that is true I am sure somebody that goes to Georgetown or Harvard does fit that mold perfectly, but the majority do not. Just like there are some tier 4 grads that never get jobs or pass the bar, but just because one person fits the mold does not mean everybody does.
 

Sure. I never said or represented that all or even most T4 grads can't pass the bar. I don't think anybody here disputes that the vast majority of students from all ABA schools pass the bar. I also didn't make any claim about your schools' curve- I just know that some law schools have very low curves. Your school's curve is high enough not to enforce much academic attrition.

However, If, for example, a school curves to a 2.6, it's almost mathematically impossible for the school not to fail out a substantial part of the class (assuming sub 2.0 fails out). The only way for that not to be the case would be for an unrealistically tiny standard deviation in scores. 

What the anti-T4 people are saying is not necessarily that you will never be successful or get a job if you go to a T4. Rather, they are making the judgment that the risk/reward calculus is not worth it.
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bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2010, 03:43:47 PM »
I am not really disputing that, but the person that got me fired up said that tier 4's fail out 25% of the class and that is NOT TRUE.

As my tie-raid above says if you go to a tier 4 you should expect an uphill battle. I don't think anybody thinks you will be handed a job from GGU or Cooley you will have to work for it. It can certainly be done, but it will be hard and if you are going to half-ass it then it is really not a good idea. You have to work harder than a Georgetown grad does to succeed in the profession nobody is denying that, but it CAN & IS DONE.

There might be schools that do kick-out 25% of the class as well. You can check the student handbook and I would recommend anybody considering school check that out before enrolling. I had heard rumors that GGU did that, but I looked at the handbook at GGU and that is not the case maybe it is elsewhere, but any student can find that out by simply looking at the handbook. Again showing that you should check your s**t before enrolling in any law school.

nealric

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2010, 03:54:16 PM »
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I am not really disputing that, but the person that got me fired up said that tier 4's fail out 25% of the class and that is NOT TRUE.

As my tie-raid above says if you go to a tier 4 you should expect an uphill battle. I don't think anybody thinks you will be handed a job from GGU or Cooley you will have to work for it. It can certainly be done, but it will be hard and if you are going to half-ass it then it is really not a good idea. You have to work harder than a Georgetown grad does to succeed in the profession nobody is denying that, but it CAN & IS DONE.
 

No arguments there. I think you do a great job of arguing the case for your school.
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bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2010, 04:36:26 PM »
Thank you. I am just trying to give the common sense perception. There is a lot of b.s. out there on the internet and lot of students are scared sh**less about enrolling law school for the WRONG REASONS. I think my school was completely honest with me on my visit by saying nobody is going to roll the red carpet out for you, but we do not fail out half the class (why would any school want to fail you out???) they want your money it is a business, and that you can pass the bar/find a job, but it will be hard. However, it is done all the time.

If you go to a tier 4 and are willing to work your f'ing ass off and get rejected a few times sometimes based solely on the name of your school you can make it happen. If you are the time of person that gets rejected one time and gives up don't go to a tier 4 or law school at all. There is no sugarcoating that there are some places that will not hire you from a tier 4, but there are plenty of places that will.  Bottom line is  tier 4's are not terrible awful places hell bent on destroying your life, but they are not Harvard either. Law school anywhere gives you an opportunity to become a lawyer and what you do with a degree from their is up to you. However, many people can & do succeed from lower ranked schools and many people don't. I really think it is more up to the individual than the school no matter where you go, but particularly when going to a non-elite school you are really going to have to make it happen for yourself.