Law School Discussion

Tier 4 Law Schools

Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2010, 03:41:57 PM »
I agree with Mr. Bigz that the Tier 4 academic attrition is not as bad as it appears.  Some attrition is due to transfers or people voluntarily withdrawing. I was terrified with fear of getting dismissed, but made it rather comfortably.

I think the Tier 1 folks here want this profession to be elitist- like how Canada does it.  Only the academically gifted are allowed to get past the gatekeeper, otherwise known as undergraduate GPA and the LSAT.

For those who follow this elitist logic- what is your counterargument on the theory of Tier 4 graduates NOT wanting to work at law firms or serve at the pleasure of an employer.  This type of student attends Tier 4 to 'hang his own shingle' out there and provides 1 on 1 personalized service with clients and carves out a niche for him or her self.

Cicero

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2010, 03:50:08 PM »
However, If, for example, a school curves to a 2.6, it's almost mathematically impossible for the school not to fail out a substantial part of the class (assuming sub 2.0 fails out). The only way for that not to be the case would be for an unrealistically tiny standard deviation in scores. 

My first semester, our curve was 2.5. It was a little better the second semester--2.7. While it may be possible for everyone do to well in a couple classes to prevent from failing out, the reality, at least in my section, was that there were students who consistently made the top grades and others who consistently made lower grades. In my section we didn't lose many people after the 1st semester, but I know some other sections had a lot less. IMO and based on student comments all year long, the curve being so low causes a lot of stress. I am very excited that I get to leave this curve behind next year since I'm transferring.

nealric

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2010, 03:52:42 PM »
Quote
For those who follow this elitist logic- what is your counterargument on the theory of Tier 4 graduates NOT wanting to work at law firms or serve at the pleasure of an employer.  This type of student attends Tier 4 to 'hang his own shingle' out there and provides 1 on 1 personalized service with clients and carves out a niche for him or her self.

I don't necessarily follow this logic, but I do enjoy playing devils advocate. The way the question is phrased, I doubt anyone who whole-heartedly follows the "elitist logic" would want to respond.

The main criticism would be that there are too many lawyers in the country and we must therefore ration somehow. It wouldn't be a good thing if you gave out a law license to everyone who wanted one. Imagine if they let just anybody into medical school: you would probably be a bit more skeptical of a new doctor. You have to place some limits. Even T-4 schools reject people who they think are completely unqualified. So, by this reasoning, you might as well pick those who have shown the most academic promise to enter the profession. It may be "elitist", but don't you want your lawyer to be of elite ability?

Again, devils advocate here.  :)

bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2010, 03:57:59 PM »
I think both sides actually have no idea what they are talking about when they criticize something they know nothing about. I hear people at my school say how tier 4's give such a practical education and they would do so much better in an interview than an Ivy League grad and it's like probably not. I am sure an education at Berkley will teach you the same practical things that a tier 4 will and that is just stupid to say that. Also people at Georgetown & Stanford etc are generally quite well adapted in fact two of my friends that went to Stanford Undergard were very cool people in high school who played sports and were athletic cool people to be around, but they were just really smart also, which is awesome.

On the other hand someone who goes to Stanford Undergrad and Harvard Law School really should not be speculating on how things will turn out a tier 4. Considering their expectations regarding their education probably vary a great deal from someone who went to Chico State & Golden Gate.  They are implying their expectations on someone from a tier 4 and that just doesn't make sense.  They honestly no idea about it so it is really crazy for them to speculate on how a tier 4 will turn out.

I also imagine at Georgetown etc there are some people struggling to find jobs at graduation that just happens at every school. There are probably way less people with that problem at Georgetown or Harvard, but it does exist as I have said numerous times Harvard, Stanford, etc do not have 100% employment or bar passage rates and I could go track somebody down that did not succeed from one of those schools. However, had I gotten into Stanford that is where I would be, but I honestly could study for 20 years and probably not crack 175 on the LSAT.

Honestly, the only school I can really speak about is GGU I have no idea about any other school.  I have heard individuals accounts about other schools, but even those vary a great I know people who hated going to Hastings and 3 people that loved it. The two people that hated Hastings did not pass the bar and the blame Hastings saying it was so competitive that they couldn't focus and their confidence was ruined. I think that is not a great excuse, because plenty of their classmates passed the bar and it just goes to show law school is what you make of it.

 There are people here that don't like GGU and there are those that love it. One of my professors transferred from Harvard to UCLA, because she hated Harvard, but plenty of people love going to Harvard. You can find a success story or failure from every single school in every single industry and the end of the day any educational experience is what YOU make of it.

No school wants to ruin your life why would they??  I just hate when people post these unfounded ludicrous horror stories about tier 4's maybe they are true at these schools I have no idea since I don't go, but I do know for a 100% fact that they are not true at GGU.


bigs5068

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2010, 04:12:06 PM »
My last post went up before I read the other two. I imagine most schools have a pretty stringent curve that is law school and 50% of the class anywhere will finish at the bottom 50% at least if my 2nd grade math skills are still intact. Law school is stressful anywhere and it is a subjective profession and you have to be better than the other side in the real world. If two people are licensed by the bar they are both fairly intelligent and if they have a case against eachother one person is going to a do better job and win the case. Just like in law school everybody who makes it through the first year studies their ass off, but some put more work in or are just better naturally  at tests. Same thing in sports I mean everybody in the NBA is very good at basketball, but there is a pecking order and their are all stars, starters, 6th men, and benchwarmers. They are all extremely good at the sport, but not everybody can be a superstar. I really feel like a lot of the people who write for JD underground etc had wild expectations and thought they were super special for finishing in the middle or bottom of the pack at a tier 4 and expected someone to hand them a job simply by getting through law school.  That is just retarded plenty of people graduate from law school, but you need to do a lot more than just graduate particularly if you go to a low ranked school. You should be either joining journals or getting as much more experience as possible while in school. If you just get through law school with a 2.6 GPA/pass the bar and never had an internship or were involved nobody is going to be that impressed. There are plenty of J.D..'s and it is hard work to obtain that, but a J.D. is simply not enough you need to make yourself stand out by going above and beyond the bare minimum.

I agree with Nearlic that not everybody should be licensed to be a lawyer, but it is quite difficult to get through any law school and pass the bar. So they are not just handing out degrees. GGU and other tier 4's deny plenty of people. Getting a 150 on the LSAT is the top 50% of test takers. 50% of college educated people score lower than a 150 so it is quite difficult to get in to any ABA school.


SASS

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2010, 04:28:28 PM »
No school wants to ruin your life why would they??  I just hate when people post these unfounded ludicrous horror stories about tier 4's maybe they are true at these schools I have no idea since I don't go, but I do know for a 100% fact that they are not true at GGU.

Their goal isn't to ruin your life, it is to make money.  That is why all these schools keep opening . . . all about the money.   For example, Charleston School of Law opened 5 or so years ago.  Do you know who opened it?  Partners at law firms in Charleston, as a money maker.  South Carolina already had a law school in USC which is where almost all the lawyers in Charleston came from and USC is well respected in SC. No need for another school in the state. Their library is in the same building as a music venue called the Music Farm and they had a very low bar passage rate for the past couple of years.  Do you think the founders really care about those individuals?

I will say it again, I went to a T4 (not Charleston, fyi) and I can speak from personal experience that T4's are not worth it.  I also transferred to a T20 and can tell the T4's that there is absolutely NO comparison between the schools.  The T4's are not in the same league.  Why on earth would anyone incur debts of $150K or more to fight uphill?  If it is going to be an uphill battle your entire career, why do it?  This is why I tell all people who want to go to law school to concentrate on the LSAT.  Many people who go to those schools think that if they work hard, good things will come.  That is not always true, no matter how much anyone of us wish it were so.  There are a lot of people shut out right now, while the schools continue to collect tuition. 

Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2010, 04:36:25 PM »
I'm glad you responded SASS. I think it was you who some time ago commented that you liked your T4 school professors and the education, but you disliked some of your classmates "because they have no business being lawyers".  I think that goes to my 'elitist logic' from above and the fact T1 folks here try to dissuade would-be law students from attending a Tier 4.

Big pimpin Bigs.... man you got to shorten them paragraphs. I like what you got to say and agree with much of it, but the attention span does not allow me to absorb all the breadth of your postings.

No school wants to ruin your life why would they??  I just hate when people post these unfounded ludicrous horror stories about tier 4's maybe they are true at these schools I have no idea since I don't go, but I do know for a 100% fact that they are not true at GGU.

Their goal isn't to ruin your life, it is to make money.  That is why all these schools keep opening . . . all about the money.   For example, Charleston School of Law opened 5 or so years ago.  Do you know who opened it?  Partners at law firms in Charleston, as a money maker.  South Carolina already had a law school in USC which is where almost all the lawyers in Charleston came from and USC is well respected in SC. No need for another school in the state. Their library is in the same building as a music venue called the Music Farm and they had a very low bar passage rate for the past couple of years.  Do you think the founders really care about those individuals?

I will say it again, I went to a T4 (not Charleston, fyi) and I can speak from personal experience that T4's are not worth it.  I also transferred to a T20 and can tell the T4's that there is absolutely NO comparison between the schools.  The T4's are not in the same league.  Why on earth would anyone incur debts of $150K or more to fight uphill?  If it is going to be an uphill battle your entire career, why do it?  This is why I tell all people who want to go to law school to concentrate on the LSAT.  Many people who go to those schools think that if they work hard, good things will come.  That is not always true, no matter how much anyone of us wish it were so.  There are a lot of people shut out right now, while the schools continue to collect tuition.

SASS

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2010, 04:43:12 PM »
I'm glad you responded SASS. I think it was you who some time ago commented that you liked your T4 school professors and the education, but you disliked some of your classmates "because they have no business being lawyers".  I think that goes to my 'elitist logic' from above and the fact T1 folks here try to dissuade would-be law students from attending a Tier 4.


Sorry, I don't think that was me.  My professors were ok, nothing special.  Didn't like the school, they had a bunch of smoke to sell.  I actually have very goods still at the T4's, I am here posting out of empathy for them and the rest of the soon to be law students. I don't want to see people get taken down by a scam.  That is my purpose here, not to demean any student.

SASS

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Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2010, 04:48:53 PM »
BTW, I don't think alot of people should be in law school (not that that is unique to T4's though).  Too many people go because they don't know what else to do and they want to make money.  I believe we ALL agree that is a bad idea.  But the T4's do have some people who are not very smart, not necessarily dumb, but not smart.  So do higher ranked schools, just not as many.   That's life though.

Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2010, 04:57:21 PM »
I respect your allegations of schools preying on students for money.  However, I disagree.   Charleston was created because there was only 1 law school in South Carolina. There was a real need there. Many T4's have been in existance for many decades and most are non-profit.

Secondly, in the long run all lawyers will benefit from all these schools pumping out law school graduates year after year. There will be more and more  lawsuits (and need for legal services) and that results in lawyers getting paid. In the short term, certainly more competion in combination with a bad economy will make for a turbulent time.