Law School should be approached with caution

[cooleylawstudent]

hard to find a job, that must not be true....but how can I bull it because I'm an idiot...."overgeneralise"....

[bigs5068]

Yes it is difficult to find a good job is that better. Hard to find a job as attorney, hard to find a job as business analyst, hard to become a doctor, any substsantive job is hard to get.

It is not that difficult to get a job at BlockBuster or Walmart.  Is that a better generalization?

[the white rabbit]

hard to find a job, that must not be true....but how can I bull it because I'm an idiot...."overgeneralise"....

I know you're trying to take a shot at me in some way, but you're failing badly with this one.  You should go back to that whole "need a bottle" thing.  That was pretty good.

Yes it is difficult to find a good job is that better. Hard to find a job as attorney, hard to find a job as business analyst, hard to become a doctor, any substsantive job is hard to get.

It is not that difficult to get a job at BlockBuster or Walmart.  Is that a better generalization?

Well yes, but not exactly what I had in mind.  You make it sound like everyone has an equally (or at least comparably) difficult time finding a job as a lawyer, and that's simply not true.  There are people who have job offers just thrown at them.

[bigs5068]

Of course they do. If you go to Harvard you will have an easier time getting a job as an attorney from there.

If you are 7'9 you will have an easier shot at getting into the NBA than a guy that is 6'2.

If you are a math genius you will have a better shot at becoming a rocket scientist of course some people have it easier than others and Harvard is better than Cooley. I am pretty sure nobody is going to dispute that.

If you go to Cooley as the OP did I would think he should have realized he was going to have a harder time finding a job than a Harvard Grad.  If he didn't know that then I don't know what to say.

[cvtheis]

Read my posts, I am not complaining or whining about not finding a decent legal job - in fact I thank God I did not.  I've got a great career I love, make better money than most associates outside of biglaw, and my JD helps me be better... but it took some soul-searching to realize, and admit, that going to law school was a mistake - I got lucky and was not crushed (financially or emotionally) by the experience.  Others won't be so fortunate.

I made this post on the Cooley board b/c as an alum I was making the point that some (many?) attending 3T and 4T law schools better realize that there are few good opportunities out there and that reconsidering the whole law school path should be an option.  The law school is not going to tell you how bad it really is from an employment perspective, they want to keep you coming in and paying a ridiculous rate of $850/credit hour.  If you are going to spend that kind of money, you better think through the long-term plan and outlook. 

yes, you made the point that its difficult for all sectors -- fair enough.  But all sectors do not require you to go $100+K in debt just for the opportunity to play (with NO guarantee of success), law does.  You dont need a $100K law degree to get a $40/k year job, but that is what a huge number of 3T and 4T law graduates are going to find themselves doing.  That can be a path to financial ruin.

My overall point is that law school is a huge investment, and the chance for payoff today is significantly worse than it was 5 years ago, and will be bad for the forseeable future.  If you are going to plunk down $100K you better REALLY think it through and go in with eyes wide open because you could be making a very bad investment decision..

Of course they do. If you go to Harvard you will have an easier time getting a job as an attorney from there.

If you are 7'9 you will have an easier shot at getting into the NBA than a guy that is 6'2.

If you are a math genius you will have a better shot at becoming a rocket scientist of course some people have it easier than others and Harvard is better than Cooley. I am pretty sure nobody is going to dispute that.

If you go to Cooley as the OP did I would think he should have realized he was going to have a harder time finding a job than a Harvard Grad.  If he didn't know that then I don't know what to say.

[bigs5068]

I agree with that is outrageously expensive and it really should not be that much. I think a lot of people go into law school with delusions of grandeur particularly to lower ranked schools, but bottom line is that becoming a lawyer is not the path to riches. Movies and the media portray a way different lifestyle than what the reality for being a lawyer is. If you are going to law school, because you think you are going to get rich then it is not a good idea.

If you want to be a lawyer then by all means go to law school. It sucks that you have to pay so much money to do it and I really don't think it is fair or right to charge such exorbitant amounts what any law school does with all the money they get I would love to know. I have seen Hastings, Santa Clara, GGU, and USF each have 700 or something law student's paying 30,000 a year that money is certainly going to someone, but not directly to the students that's for sure. It is financially a rip-off at any school, but you have 0% chance of being a lawyer unless you go to law school. If you want to be a lawyer you have to pay the money and that is the way it is.  I went to law school, because I want to be a lawyer and I am sure I will not be making 100k at graduation or probably at any point in my life. However, I will like being a lawyer that is why I am here. I could have stayed in China and been rich out of mind, but I hated it out there money is money at the end of the day and if you hate what you are doing then at least to me it is not worth it. To other people money is everything and if money is your priority do NOT go to law school, because you will be disappointed. 

[byebyeny]

Thinking about the uttered words from the perspective of the utterer always helps with understanding 'why'. Most people codify others' words with their own experience and start responding with cynical and judgmental attitude once they see conflicts between themselves and others. Doing this on internet is a lot easier than doing it in real life conversation. I suspect the reason for such difference is because the real life consequence of having judgmental attitude can lead to more serious consequences. The simple truth is, there is no absolute truth. It is all about how you frame it, how you say your words. We may know a little more or less information than the other person, but everyone's experience justifies it. Follow your heart, but respect others's codifying system, which is desperately trying to take in information that conflict with their ego and self-esteem, while not breaking themselves down. If you don't, no matter how right you may be in truth, you will also suffer as the truth you once knew becomes false. The more ego and cynical attitude you have in your heart, the more injury to your pride and self-esteem. It is fruitless to try to persuade. Wise people knew it long time ago. I write this with good intention and hope this will not seriously conflict with other's codifying systems. Maybe the first step is having trust, in yourself, in others' experiences, and in the world.

[cooleylawstudent]

oh no, the person that I am trying to not get along with dosn't approve of me......

hard to find a job, that must not be true....but how can I bull it because I'm an idiot...."overgeneralise"....

I know you're trying to take a shot at me in some way, but you're failing badly with this one.  You should go back to that whole "need a bottle" thing.  That was pretty good.

Yes it is difficult to find a good job is that better. Hard to find a job as attorney, hard to find a job as business analyst, hard to become a doctor, any substsantive job is hard to get.

It is not that difficult to get a job at BlockBuster or Walmart.  Is that a better generalization?

Well yes, but not exactly what I had in mind.  You make it sound like everyone has an equally (or at least comparably) difficult time finding a job as a lawyer, and that's simply not true.  There are people who have job offers just thrown at them.

[the white rabbit]

oh no, the person that I am trying to not get along with dosn't approve of me......

I'm just suggesting ways that you could try to not get along with me better. 

Thinking about the uttered words from the perspective of the utterer always helps with understanding 'why'. Most people codify others' words with their own experience and start responding with cynical and judgmental attitude once they see conflicts between themselves and others. Doing this on internet is a lot easier than doing it in real life conversation. I suspect the reason for such difference is because the real life consequence of having judgmental attitude can lead to more serious consequences. The simple truth is, there is no absolute truth. It is all about how you frame it, how you say your words. We may know a little more or less information than the other person, but everyone's experience justifies it. Follow your heart, but respect others's codifying system, which is desperately trying to take in information that conflict with their ego and self-esteem, while not breaking themselves down. If you don't, no matter how right you may be in truth, you will also suffer as the truth you once knew becomes false. The more ego and cynical attitude you have in your heart, the more injury to your pride and self-esteem. It is fruitless to try to persuade. Wise people knew it long time ago. I write this with good intention and hope this will not seriously conflict with other's codifying systems. Maybe the first step is having trust, in yourself, in others' experiences, and in the world.

Codify more concisely. 

Of course they do. If you go to Harvard you will have an easier time getting a job as an attorney from there.

If you are 7'9 you will have an easier shot at getting into the NBA than a guy that is 6'2.

If you are a math genius you will have a better shot at becoming a rocket scientist of course some people have it easier than others and Harvard is better than Cooley. I am pretty sure nobody is going to dispute that.

If you go to Cooley as the OP did I would think he should have realized he was going to have a harder time finding a job than a Harvard Grad.  If he didn't know that then I don't know what to say.

That's all I'm saying: there are lots of very obvious nuances that you're not capturing when you say, "it's hard to find a job as an attorney."  For lots of Harvard grads for example, it's not hard at all.  Both common sense and the actual data that we could collect on this supports that idea.  What you want to do is make sure you're capturing this nuance in your statements, which is pretty easy to do.  For example, you could have said, "It's hard to find a job as an attorney, unless you're (coming out of one of the very top schools, have certain connections, etc.)"

I know it sounds like quibbling and the reader very obviously should have enough sense to realize that you mean that, but lawyers can't rely on the sense of other people.  Let the laypeople do that.  Language has to be very exact.  And yes, it may seem silly to stick to that here on an internet message board, but these are habits of the mind that are important to maintain everywhere, because otherwise they get degraded where it counts as well.

Just some suggestions.

[cvtheis]

Money is not everything; however, it is not nothing either.  When you have a crushing student loan debt and other bills to pay, you need "enough" money.  When you have a wife and family, you want to provide them with the nice things only money can buy - not to sound crass, but the idealism that "I dont need money to be happy" evaporates fairly quickly once you are working, facing bills, trying to provide for a family, wanting to do things with friends, and realize that 'yes, money can buy me some things that will make me happy.'  The flip side of the equatuion is that not having enough money WILL make you very UNHAPPY.  If the student loan debt throws the balance of the financial equation out of whack, well, you have a serious problem.  Comes back to the decision to go to law school being a financial and lifestyle decision.

To address other comments - yes, some Harvard law grads ARE having difficulty finding work.

I agree with that is outrageously expensive and it really should not be that much. I think a lot of people go into law school with delusions of grandeur particularly to lower ranked schools, but bottom line is that becoming a lawyer is not the path to riches. Movies and the media portray a way different lifestyle than what the reality for being a lawyer is. If you are going to law school, because you think you are going to get rich then it is not a good idea.

If you want to be a lawyer then by all means go to law school. It sucks that you have to pay so much money to do it and I really don't think it is fair or right to charge such exorbitant amounts what any law school does with all the money they get I would love to know. I have seen Hastings, Santa Clara, GGU, and USF each have 700 or something law student's paying 30,000 a year that money is certainly going to someone, but not directly to the students that's for sure. It is financially a rip-off at any school, but you have 0% chance of being a lawyer unless you go to law school. If you want to be a lawyer you have to pay the money and that is the way it is.  I went to law school, because I want to be a lawyer and I am sure I will not be making 100k at graduation or probably at any point in my life. However, I will like being a lawyer that is why I am here. I could have stayed in China and been rich out of mind, but I hated it out there money is money at the end of the day and if you hate what you are doing then at least to me it is not worth it. To other people money is everything and if money is your priority do NOT go to law school, because you will be disappointed.